Don Oehlert Full Interview Transcript
Guest: Don Oehlert, Founder of eCareerCoaching.com
Host: AJ Riedel
Podcast: Thriving Through
About Don Oehlert
Don Oehlert is a career coach and founder of eCareerCoaching.com who specializes in helping senior executives overcome ageism in their job search. With 6 years as a self-employed coach and 15 years of prior volunteer experience helping unemployed professionals, Don brings extensive expertise to executive career transitions. After being laid off in 2003, he learned modern job search techniques and discovered his passion for helping others navigate career challenges. Don attended over 500 different training sessions on job search strategies and worked with church ministry outreach programs before launching his coaching business in 2018.
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The Journey from Corporate to Coaching
AJ: Welcome to the Thriving Through podcast, Don.
Don: Thank you. Glad to be here.
AJ: I have 2 questions that I ask every podcast guest. First question is, how long have you been a self-employed coach?
Don: 6 years in June.
AJ: And the second question is, what made you decide to do that?
Don: Too much gas left in the tank to retire, and I love this work.
AJ: And this work means, what do you mean by this work?
Don: Helping people get back to work that they have too much gas left in the tank to retire. I work with senior executives that are suffering ageism in their job search.
From Layoff to Volunteer Mission
AJ: So is this something that you did in your career? For in corporate? Or is this something that you decided you wanted to do after you left the 9 to 5?
Don: Actually, when I was laid off in 2003, I didn't know how to look for a job in the new millennium. So I had to learn it, and as I learned it, I found out I wasn't the only one suffering from that lack of knowledge, and so I volunteered with a couple of church ministry outreach ministries for the unemployed, and really found out I liked doing that and helping other people get back to work and found out I was not too bad at it, and had a great mentor.
I attended about 500 different sessions from different people about different aspects of the job search—different things that you need to undertake in a successful job search campaign. And I did that for 15 years. And then, when I semi-retired in 2018, my wife said, "Yeah, you're not just gonna retire and sit on the couch and watch Netflix reruns. Buddy, get out there and do something." So we decided to start the company.
AJ: For 15 years you worked for a company doing what you're doing now.
Don: Oh, no! I was volunteer, totally.
AJ: Volunteer. And now you decided that you might be able to make a living.
Don: Yes, and...
Six Years In: Expectations vs Reality
AJ: After 6 years of doing this, are you where you expected to be?
Don: Yes and no. I had hoped it would be more financially rewarding by now, but the customer stories have been very rewarding, and from that perspective. Yes, I'm very happy with where I'm at in that regard. But I would like a few more clients to round out the savings account, if you will, and the retirement accounts.
The Challenge of Lead Generation
AJ: What do you think is getting in the way of more revenue?
Don: A lot of people that I focus on—my ideal client profile if you will—don't like to raise their hands and say they need help. Most of them are senior executives and very capable senior executives, and very good senior executives at what they do, and they've always gotten a job before without the need of outside help.
The problem with it is, many of them have been in their companies for 10, 15, 20 years, and things have changed a little bit in those last 10, 15, 20 years, and they haven't kept up with it for the fundamental reason they've been busy doing their job.
AJ: Why would they? Exactly.
Don: Yeah, but that's all I've really been focusing on for the last 2 and a half decades. So that's where a specialist can come in.
Finding Clients Who Don't Advertise Their Need
AJ: So they're not gonna let people on LinkedIn know that they're wanting to transition. So you can't find them on LinkedIn, you can't use sales navigator to find them. How do you find them?
Don: Mostly through referrals. I've got about 875 people that I've helped over this last 25 years, either through the volunteer or through the company volunteer situation, or through the company. And I do get a lot of referrals that way.
I do find people believe it or not on LinkedIn, although they don't raise their hands. I do post regularly. And so once in a while someone will reach out and say I need help, or I noticed your post on this topic, and I'd like to discuss that further.
I also network a lot. I'm in 6 different networking groups now. And so people introduce me to people they know, or people that they know, who know someone that might need help. And we have conversations about job search. They come to me that way.
AJ: So you network a lot. I assume that means you enjoy it.
Don: I love it.
Networking Strategies for Introverts
AJ: Networking is not my favorite activity. So give me some advice and other self-employed consultants who are in the same boat. Give me some advice on how I might get started doing networking effectively. For me, I don't like the chit chat. I'm an introvert, so it's that chit chat that's very uncomfortable.
Don: That's a very good question. And I get that a lot from clients, because historically, our work has spoken for itself. If you've been with a company for 10, 15, 20 years, as I spoke about a moment ago, your work has spoken for itself, and you've probably been promoted because of that work.
And you haven't had to interview or create a resume or update your LinkedIn profile in that amount of time to the degree you need to attract attention externally. And so, coming up with all of that, you need to have a good message, and that message can then be used in your networking activities as well.
So the first thing we need to do is figure out what is your ideal role, or, in your case, ideal client profile, if you will—most likely to hire you as a professional marketer. And then what do they look like? What industry are they in? How old are they? What have they spent money on in the past? What are the problems that they will or may not raise their hands about? What are the problems they're not aware of that you can solve?
Put that into really, as an old boss used to say, itty bitty words and tiny little sentences that they can really understand. And people can understand that are not your ideal profile or an ideal referral partner, as I like to call them, that can say, "Okay, I don't need AJ's services right now. But I know a guy who runs a small company that needs some assistance," and if they understand well enough what you do—a branding statement, if you will—they can say, "Hey, I don't do it, but I know AJ. And she's really good at that," and they can broker that introduction for you, and that takes a lot of that pressure off of you for cold outreach in particular.
AJ: I love the advice. It also, one of the things that I counsel my clients is the importance of establishing the foundation, and you just gave the perfect reason why we have to establish that foundation. Because it's exactly what you talked about. It's who is your ideal client. What problems do they have that you can solve. What mistakes are they making? What's your value proposition? What sets you apart from anyone else? How can you solve their problem. So you've put into great wise words why that foundation is so important to have.
Don: Thank you. And it makes it easier for people to refer you. Because if you were to, for instance, call up Toyota at the front desk at Toyota, and say, "I want to talk to somebody about engines," they'll say, "Well, do you mean for cars or planes, or generators, or what?" You want to have, "No, I want to talk to the person that does generators for homes"—that's much different than an industrial generator, much different than a Toyota RAV4. Or whatever.
So the more specific you can be, the more help I'm able to provide, or a networking provider partner of yours can provide. So being very specific is very useful for everyone involved.
AJ: It strikes me that that's also true for your clients.
Don: Absolutely.
Common Client Resistance and the Resume-Only Trap
AJ: What resistance do you get from them when they're first starting to work with you? And they're on the start of the job hunt or the career hunt.
Don: Most come to me and say, "Can you just help me rewrite my resume?"
And of course I can. But the problem is, I don't know that person very well, and I don't know their stories. I don't know what outcomes they've generated. I don't know the quantified value of the outcomes they've generated, and numbers don't lie.
So if you have generated a program for someone, and it made that company an extra 20% of revenue year over year, and we can attribute that 20% increase in revenue to the program you've created, we have pretty cool things—a story we can share with the next client social proof. And we can build a story around that and be concise and be powerful and be cogent, and that makes sense to the next person and the next person and the next person.
The Home Renovation Metaphor
AJ: So if they come to you and say "I just need help with my resume," they need more than that, but they don't necessarily know they need more than that. So how do you move them into understanding that they need to do more with you?
Don: One of the questions I'll ask: "Have you ever painted a room? I'm talking about my job search here. What does painting a room got to do with that?" So I'll start to say, well, if you've ever painted a room, and let's say the door handle went through the drywall, and there's a bunch of holes where the pictures used to hang, and maybe you had to replace your windows, and the trim isn't quite right. Well, yeah, you can paint that room, but you're still gonna have a hole in the wall where the door handle went through and where all those little nail holes were, and it won't quite look right where the trim was. And so you'll have a better looking room. But you won't have a good looking room.
It won't be right, it will. And if it isn't right, it's not helping you. It's actually hurting you, because now you're trying to solve a problem that person doesn't even know you're trying to solve, because the messaging is way off. It's too general.
I call it the Blind Archer approach. Where you give the guy a quiver full of arrows on the back and a bow, and you turn them around 3 or 4 times, and they've of course got the blindfold on. And you say, "Okay, shoot at the target."
AJ: It could end up shooting you.
Don: Run. Yes, so focus is the big deal. We talk about all of those things that you could be missing. You will be missing—not could, you will miss.
AJ: I like that. I like the use of metaphor, too, to help them understand it.
The Executive Job Market Reality
So you deal with senior executives. Is there a price sensitivity? Or is there a little bit of money's no object—they hopefully have investments and a pretty nice bank account?
Don: Yeah, they are a little better off, by all means, as a rule, because they've got investments. Maybe they just did an exit with their last company. So they've gotten some revenue that way or some funds.
And also, as you climb the corporate ladder there are fewer and fewer seats the higher up you go. So your messaging has to be that much more powerful than all of the other people that are applying for the same job you are. And, by the way, anywhere from 500 to 13,000 people will apply for the same job you're going for.
And a lot of people don't know that. And so if you're that blind archer again, and you're just another one of those people in a 13,000 person line out in the front door of the company trying to get in to talk to HR. HR's job is to whittle out 12,999 people, in the hopes that they can come up with one good person to bring in.
But if you've got the right message at the right time with the right person, and you've got an internal coach that can lay your paperwork on the desk of the hiring manager, that's a referral. That's good news, because now you've got someone that can speak to the hiring authority and say, "Hey, AJ is a good person. We need to take a look at her," and probably that hiring manager will do that because they know and trust that person that just vouched for you.
Overcoming Business Challenges: The Lead Generation Struggle
AJ: I want to switch gears a little. Talk about your journey in the last 6 years of building a business. Tell me a story about an obstacle or a challenge that you experienced, and how you overcame it.
Don: The probably the biggest obstacle is what we were talking about earlier, which is lead generation. I think one of the sarcastic comments I would make: Show me any entrepreneur, with a few exceptions, who's happy with his or her lead flow, and I will show you a liar.
Never enough leads. There's never enough clients right by this. The other side of that coin is, for instance, for me, 6 to 8 clients, and I'm at capacity. So it is a delicate balance.
But finding the right kind of people is also a challenge to your point earlier. If someone is so insistent that all they want me to do is do their resume, I just kind of say "I'm not the right coach for you," because I'm not going to serve you well, I'm not going to get you what you need, and I would take your money, and you're just not gonna get a job in a reasonable timeframe.
Learning from Early Mistakes
AJ: So they're not your ideal client. I love that. That is a hard thing to do, especially early on. There's a tendency to want to take anybody, because it's money. But did you learn that the hard way, or have you said no to people who just want resume work right from the get-go?
Don: Absolutely. My first client was resume only. And I did it because I knew that guy, because the first few clients you get are almost always inside your network. You let people know you're out of work. And this is what I know how to do. So people will raise their hands and say, "Oh, I could use some help with that," and of course you undercharge them because they're friends, and you want to get started. You want to get some social proof.
I still have the $2 that he paid me, one for buying my book and one for the resume rewrite is up there over my desk, but it also taught me that it's not really where I can do my best work for the client that I'm working with.
So I would recommend, if you can afford it, to stay true to the offers that you have, and find those clients that you can really do the best work you can. But if you can't come up with an offer that does meet their budget, and you can still do a good job for them, be true to both parties.
Building Referral Networks vs. Introductions
AJ: Do you have a system for getting referrals? Or how do you get referrals?
Don: Yes, I do. And as I go around networking, I try to figure out people that I can collaborate with mutually where I can give a lead to someone once in a while, or at least a conversation. I like to call them introductions versus referrals, because there's a lot less pressure on an introduction. A referral, on the other hand, is where both of us are expecting business to happen on the other side of the conversation.
An introduction is just real easy. I see you. You want to talk to lawyers. Well, I know 2 lawyers, for instance, and I can make that introduction. If something comes of it, okay. If something doesn't come of it, okay.
But a referral usually also is a halo effect on my reputation. So if I say, "Yeah, AJ is the best," and you turn around and mess up, and I'm not saying you would, I'm just saying a scenario here, then I also look bad to that person, so I need to be real careful with my referrals, as do my referral partners when they refer me.
So I need to make sure that anyone who does refer me, I make sure I'm on my A-plus game, not just my A game for a referral.
Introductions, on the other hand, lowers the temperature for everybody involved. It seems like, whenever I've gotten a referral, I feel like I have to be a little bit more... There's more pressure involved on all parties, and the other person is expected sort of like when you walk into a store, and somebody says, "May I help you?"
What's your first reaction?
AJ: No, thank you.
Don: No, thank you. So...
AJ: Well, I think a referral also kind of kicks that our need for reciprocity kind of starts to kick in with the perception that it's a referral as opposed to just it's just an introduction. It's a continuation of networking.
Don: Yes, exactly. That exactly that.
The Entrepreneurial Learning Curve
AJ: So you knew your stuff really well, after all of the volunteer work. What were some things that you didn't know about having your own business that you had to learn very quickly when you first went out on your own?
Don: Accounting, marketing, sales, operation. Well, delivery I'm fine with, because that's what I do. The coaching, that's what I do.
It's sort of like the way I talk to my clients about is when you're in corporate, this is your job, and there are people over here that do things, and over here and all the way around you. You know they're there, you know they do things, but you don't know what they do and the extent to which they do them.
Now, as an entrepreneur, you have to do those things. So get QuickBooks, right? It should be easy.
What's a chart of accounts? Oh, my good! You know, all of these different things, and you don't know what you don't know. So the hardest part is, I don't necessarily know what questions to ask my accountant. I don't know how to set up my master file, and that's just one.
I wasn't trained classically in marketing, so I had to learn how to do that. Then what's the difference between a marketing strategy and a marketing tactic. And what is a sequence? An email sequence? My goodness, come on! Why don't I just post a few things and people come to me. No, it doesn't work that way.
AJ: Yeah, and not to mention all the technology—customer relationship management, CRM, and what platform do you do your website on. And what platform do you do automated email. It's a lot.
Don: Yes. And what makes good LinkedIn content. So you might get a whole bunch of likes and comments, but you get no customers out of it. What makes a good conversion content post, whatever—should I do pictures? Should I just do text? Should I do video? Is LinkedIn the right place to be? Should I be on Instagram? How about TikTok? Where...
AJ: You have. You've just articulated what I think every consultant that I have talked to thinks, and probably isn't able to articulate: it's all so confusing.
Don: Yeah. And things change on a dime—ChatGPT, Claude, Grok. Oh, my goodness! And if I put this in there is that gonna give away my IP, or is it...
AJ: Where am I putting myself at risk?
Don: Right? Exactly. And oh, gosh! Cyber security! What if somebody breaks into my systems? Now, all of my clients data is gonna be out there. And what if somebody sues me for that? Oh, my goodness, all of these things!
What insurance do I need—errors and omissions. And oh, my goodness, how do I? Where do I get a lawyer? How do I...
Surprise. You're in charge of all of that, Mr. Business owner or Ms. Business owner.
AJ: Exactly.
Advice for Self-Employed Consultants
AJ: What are you reading right now in nonfiction?
Don: Nonfiction. I like mystery, and I like action adventure books. So there's a thing called, I know. Darn it, I can't remember the name of it, but it's a 3 book series going on in Washington, DC. There's a Joe, reader is the guy's name, and he's a former Secret service agent who is now helping the FBI solve crimes. So it's interesting. I'm enjoying that.
AJ: Very cool. And last question, words of advice to self-employed consultants.
Don: Get clear on your message. Who do you help? What do you do? How long does it take?
Defend your pricing. Be confident in your pricing. Be confident in what you do.
Look for professional equilibrium in the sales calls that you have. If you're worth $3,000 an hour, you're worth $3,000 an hour. Don't hide. Don't be worried. If you're not okay, be worth $2,000 an hour, whatever.
Don't apologize. Don't discount without taking something off the table, because that shows a lack of integrity. If I told you $3,000, but you said, "Well, my budget's 2." And I said, "Okay, I can do it for 2." Why didn't you tell me 2,000 in first place? So you would never recommend me again, because I'm going to tell your person $3,000 when I could have done it for 2.
It just doesn't... and then earn that 3,000—earn it and be worth it. But say it with confidence, say it with confidence.
Building Social Proof from Scratch
AJ: And I lied. I have one more question. Social proof—testimonials, case studies, being able to say that if you charge 3,000, that it's really worth 12,000 to them in future revenue, or whatever—we don't have that when we first start out. So it's kind of a catch-22. How do we get it if we don't have it so we can't build that trust factor that we can deliver what we promise to deliver. So what's your advice? How do we build the social proof?
Don: Very good question and the way I had to go about that, and the way I've seen many others, coaches and consultants go about it is they work with a friend, work with a business partner that they've known over the years.
Say, "Look, I will give you a heck of a deal. If you will give me a really good testimonial, allow me to use your picture, your name, your title, and your company name in a case study, or on my website, or whatever. Will you also allow me to have new clients call you for a reference? Will you write me a reference or something that does help you build that social proof?" Because once you get one, you can get another one and then another one, and the snowball grows.
But it also comes to the point, especially if you're calling on small to medium sized business. They don't really need that many references. They just need you to know and feel that you're the person that can solve their problems.
The secret in sales is people buy emotionally.
AJ: And then look for reasons to back it up logically later.
Don: It's not all about price. If it was, why does Cadillac, Lamborghini, BMW—all of these high-end car companies—why do they have a business? People buy those because they want them because they need them.
So price is not always the defining factor.
Handling Price Objections
AJ: When it's often the objection. If you're in a call and you've made an offer to somebody, it's kind of a universal objection on the part of the potential prospect. So how do you overcome "I can't afford it," or "that's too expensive." How do you handle that objection?
Don: I have a couple of ways of handling that. Number one: If you haven't built the value proposition big enough—to your point earlier, you said if I have a $12,000 value, and I'm only charging 3,000 for it, it's a bargain. I had one client come through, got a million dollar a year job literally after he left me.
What I charged him was minuscule compared to that. So it's like I was a rounding error in his checkbook. If you can show what it is you do—what is the valuation to that client when you're done?
So if you work with consultants, for instance, if they've got a 10 year old server and 5 year old computers and people are always waiting for things to finish, and software can no longer be updated, and so on, and so on. But you can show them how much more efficient they're going to be. If you can show them how their computers aren't going to crash anymore because of bugs that they can no longer keep out. Or I'm sorry, viruses that they can no longer keep out because they can't be updated anymore. They're going to gain time. And time is money.
You start adding up all these little things, and all of a sudden your $10,000 a month invoice is going to be nothing compared to what they're going to make as a result of your project.
Value, value, value, value. The other side of the coin for me is, I'll charge monthly if it's really that tight for you. So my upfront deposit, for instance, let's say it's $5,000. If you would rather pay me on a monthly basis, that's fine by me, because it also helps flatten out my revenues for the... Instead of this, I'm going a little bit more, so that works too.
AJ: Do you upcharge for the privilege of monthly payments?
Don: No.
I'm towards the end of this rat race. And so it's more along the lines of getting people off the bench back in the game for me than it is the... Now I have to pay my mortgage just like anybody else, and I need to eat, and all of those things. But nonetheless, the money is not the full reason, the whole reason why I do this.
It makes my week when a client calls me up and said, "I got the job." I just love that. Just love that.
AJ: That's what keeps you going.
Don: Keeps me getting up every day.
AJ: And on that note, thank you so much. That's a wrap on today's podcast episode and Don, thank you so much for being my guest today.
Don: Thank you for having me, AJ. I appreciate the invitation and for the questions and the conversation.
