Dr. Jen Fry Full Interview Transcript
From Volleyball Coach to Self-Employment
AJ: So, Dr. Jen, tell me, what was your path to becoming self-employed?
Dr. Jen: I think that's a very fascinating question, because I feel like with many people, it's not a linear path. I fell into self-employment. This was not something I thought I would do. I was a college volleyball coach for about 15 years. I lived it, breathed it. I thought I would be retiring at 70 or 80 as a volleyball coach, and then I started to realize that I had more passions and things I wanted to do.
At the same time, I was feeling very resentful at the sport. If many of y'all don't know about college sports, it is life consuming. I coached volleyball for 15 years, and from the first week of August till mid December you don't get to have a life, you don't get to have freedom. You can't just do anything. I was starting to feel really resentful that I was missing friends' weddings, anniversaries, all of those things.
When you're in volleyball, and when you're doing what I'm doing, you have to be 100% in it, and I just felt like I wasn't. I started to gauge my feelings, and I was just really resentful.
Making the Decision to Leave
Around this time I started to research more things talking about race and sport. It came to a point where I'll never forget - it's always easy to say you're going to leave your job or your industry until you have to tell the person that's paying you. You can tell all your friends and family "I'm going to quit tomorrow," but tell the person that's responsible for your 401K, tell that person that's responsible for your healthcare - then it's a whole different feeling.
I'll never forget, because we would always meet on Mondays, and I said if I do not say something on Monday at this meeting, I'm going to forget about leaving and quitting. I'm just going to stay in college volleyball. I was at that cusp, and I think a lot of us are at that cusp - what do I do, how do I do it? I want to leave, but I'm not really sure.
I had been preparing my savings. At that point I owned two houses. I wanted to make sure I could pay for things, so I was preparing my savings. Then it just came on. My head coach would always say this thing at the end of the meetings. I can't even remember what she would say, and right when she said it, it was kind of like anything else, and I just remember word vomiting: "I'm resigning." All of us were just shocked. They were as shocked as I was shocked. We were all three of us in there shocked.
I decided to leave. I wasn't sure what I was going to do. I just knew I wasn't going to do that. So from that point I went and worked at Duke.
The Colin Kaepernick Moment and Finding Purpose
Then Colin Kaepernick kneeled, and all of my friends were like, "How do we handle this? What do we do?" I realized that there was a need for someone who really wanted to work on skill development. So from that point I was just helping people with stuff, and then friends literally said you should look at becoming a professional speaker, and I had no clue what that was or what that entailed. You could have said I could go to the moon - I had no clue.
So they said it, and I tend to listen to small bugs in my ear. I literally was just like, "I don't know what to do." I'm a pretty resourceful person, so I just googled it. I researched it. I changed my website. I was blogging a lot at the time. I changed my website to become what I thought was a professional speaker's website. Didn't have a clue at that, and that kind of started my jump into it.
Testing the Waters While Employed
I worked at Duke, and I always tell people what you think you want to do when you have a job that's paying. You figure it out when the job is paying you, because I see a lot of people who are like, "I'm tired of this job. I want to quit and do my own thing." You go from working 9 to 5 to 24/7 - it's a whole different ballgame.
So I tell people, and I warn them, you want to do your own thing? Do it while you have a full time job to figure out the nuance. Figure out how bad you want it. Are you willing to do it on your off time? Are you willing to do it when you don't want to do it? 10 pm, 11 pm? So I was working at Duke. I was interviewing people for this little podcast I had, and I started to just get really good at professional speaking.
The PhD Decision and Full Leap
I was also looking at - a friend had said, "You have two masters. You can't get a third. You have to get a PhD." I was like, "Okay," so I was getting into the PhD process. I found a school.
Then I said, "I took a leap." I literally was like, "I'll leave Duke. I'll get paid this little $18,000, and if it doesn't work, I at least have my stipend. I can hustle. I can figure it out." That's where I kind of took the job. I got this PhD offer, and my schedule was starting to get so packed I knew I couldn't do it all. I could not have a full-time job, speak as much as I was, and do my PhD.
So I just jumped into this kind of self-employment. I did not have a clue what it meant. I knew nothing of this world. I just knew I could do this thing really well, and I'll figure out the rest.
Discovering the Need for Skills Training
AJ: I wanted to ask you a couple questions about when Colin Kaepernick kneeled because that feels like it got you into thinking about realizing that something was important to you that you wanted to communicate to the world.
Dr. Jen: It was more that I realized people needed something. The one thing I left out is I also started a tech company in 2022. What I realized with my tech company and my professional speaking is that you have to solve a problem for people.
When a lot of people come to me and they're like, "I want to be a motivational speaker," I'm like, "Here's the deal. Everyone wants to be a motivational speaker, everyone." I say this with the love of everything - everyone thinks that their story is worth being a motivational story. I say this, and some people might get upset, and I feel you. If you get mad, I get it. But not every story is worth being a motivational story.
A lot of you don't know how to tell your story in a motivational way. There's a big difference, because you have to know how to tell a story that grabs people, that motivates them, that inspires them, but doesn't leave them feeling dejected like "Man, this guy went through all this stuff." You don't want that.
I think when I tell people is that a lot of times when you have motivational speakers, they're celebrities, they are people that lost a limb - really high level stuff to be a motivational speaker. You have to really refine your story.
Finding the Gap in the Market
For me, what I realized when he kneeled was that there was a void of helping people develop skills. There was a void of knowledge. There was a void of just help within that area of having tough conversations, critical conversations. So many people were bombarding me. It told me that I was one of the only people helping them.
When someone was like "You could be a professional speaker," it was kind of to me this idea of this was a vehicle of helping people. The reason I got into college volleyball was it was a vehicle of helping young women develop at a really critical time in their life. Now, speaking for me with the topics I speak on, it is about helping people figure out how to navigate hard and critical times, and I have a skill of helping lead people through hard stuff without getting stuck on shame or guilt.
I'm a very curious person. I'm very inquisitive. I just did a little research into what people were doing. Who were they? Who was doing it? How are they doing it? So just a lot of research on it. But it was more like this was a vehicle to still help people in just a different way.
Developing Speaking Skills and Overcoming Imposter Syndrome
AJ: Were you really good at speaking when you decided to become a professional public speaker? Or how did you develop that skill?
Dr. Jen: I know we've had a lot of people that talk about imposter syndrome, but I don't know what that is, because I'm not going to be an imposter. I might be bad at something, but I don't think I shouldn't be doing it, and that's the difference. I have in some way balls of steel. I think I should be in these rooms, I should be on these stages. I am. Now, do I feel nervous? Yes, but I feel like I should be there.
When someone mentioned professional speaking, I wasn't like "Me? I would never." I was like, "That's interesting." I've always been the loud mouth, the talkative one, the one that will say the thing. So this was just a different way of doing it.
I had to learn how to do it well. So people come to me, and they'll say, "Dr. Jen, how do I get those big checks?" I'm like, "But you're not good." You have to realize - once you expect a big check, the person who wrote you the check, their job depends on you. I don't think many people think about that. You have the ability to get someone fired if you don't do it well.
For me, I think about that really intensely. I look at this as a skill, but also I wanted to protect the person that got me this job.
The Learning Process and Building Skills
When someone said "You should look at professional speaking," I was like, "Let me look at the skills. How should it be done? I'm watching speaker reels. I'm paying attention. Who are the top ones? Why are they the top ones? What do they do? What about in my area? Who is doing this? How are they doing it?"
It never was for me like "I shouldn't do it." It was like "I just have to work to be good at it." I don't think a lot of people think in that way. They'll think, "Oh my gosh! I'm not good! I shouldn't do it," and you're not going to be good at anything when you start. You are not Mozart, you are not Beethoven. You're not going to just sit down at a piano and write the 9th Symphony. You're not going to get a basketball and be like "I know how to do it." These things take a lot of work, time, effort, and skill building.
I picked up pickleball a few weeks ago, and I was one of the bad people on the court. I knew I was athletic, but I was bad, and my whole mindset was "I just need to play more to get better at it." That's what my whole frame of reference was - I just have to get the reps in.
I will always be appreciative of the first people who hired me because I was not good. I didn't charge, and because I wasn't good, there wasn't such an expectation, but I was able to get reps in. One thing with professional speaking - it doesn't matter what book you read, what movie you watch, what video you watch, you have to get on stage and be in front of 500, 200, 300, 20, 30 to see what it feels like and have to get the crowd to go with you from point A to Point B in that entire time.
Getting the First Paid Speaking Gig
AJ: Take us back to those early days like your first couple speaking engagements. So the first couple speaking engagements you didn't charge.
Dr. Jen: No, I didn't even know what to charge. I didn't even have a clue about that at all.
AJ: I want to focus on the time, the point where you had enough reps that you felt like you could start to charge. How did you get that first paid gig?
Dr. Jen: I don't know if it was a feeling of finally having enough reps to charge, or that someone just offered me money, and I think that's what it was. Someone said "We'll pay you." It wasn't me. I didn't have the decision. One thing I always tell people is the market will tell you your value. You can sit here and be like "I'm going to charge $50,000." Maybe the market's going to tell you your value.
Interestingly enough, the way I got my first speaking engagement - one of the reasons why I like doing podcasts is back in 2018, I did a volleyball podcast. I don't remember what we talked about. I just did it. There was a young lady, Jillian, who worked at an independent school, who was also the volleyball coach. So she heard me, and she contacted me about my first speaking engagement.
I had no clue what to charge. I think I charged like a thousand dollars, and I was coming up from Durham. I live in Baltimore. The school is Gilman, which is in Baltimore, so it's like a full circle. She was like, "How much?" And I was like, "I don't know, $1,000." And she's like, "Okay." I think she put me in a hotel room.
That was my first speaking engagement, my intro into a fee. After that I had a friend who I worked with at Elon, who left working in higher ed to go be a speaker, Dan, and I remember calling him after that, and being like "Dan, I just got paid for a speaking engagement. What do I charge?" He literally was like, "You will not charge anything less than $2,500," and that was such a scary number. I was like "$2,500," and he was like, "Yes, and you need to ask for travel."
I was so petrified because I didn't know what to ask. That's how I figured it out - don't charge less than $2,500, and that's how I kind of started getting paid. I just fell into it, and someone offered me money.
Learning to Price and Value Speaking Services
AJ: Then you did some research to find out what you should be charging.
Dr. Jen: No, because there wasn't really research to do, because within college athletics there wasn't many people speaking. There was maybe one or two speakers. There wasn't really anyone that their mainstay was college athletics. There might have been a former pro athlete, but no one that I even remember as an actual speaker. Plus people really wouldn't put their rates online.
There was no research. You couldn't ChatGPT and be like "Tell me, what are the top 10 speakers, and what do they charge?" There wasn't a way to do that. Dan was great because he worked with a speakers bureau, so he was coming from knowing what people charge. He's like, "This is what you should charge."
To be very transparent, I was doing that in '19, and I was just charging $2,500, $3,000. I just was charging - I didn't know what. Then in 2020, my prices started to go up, and then Covid hit.
Really, it was my online business managers who were like, "You need to start charging more. We need to double our price." They were the ones who helped me. I would say, one lesson learned is get you someone that's going to make sure you get more money.
The Importance of Having an Online Business Manager
If you are going to hire an online business manager, you cannot have someone that's afraid to ask for more money. You should not be the only person doing that because my online business manager, my chief of staff Don, is amazing. If I'm like, "Well, how about this much?" She's like, "No, this is what we're charging." She is a staunch advocate of me, and you need to make sure you have people that will ask for more money for you.
Because you're going to trust your online business manager with having to make offers and deals without you. You don't want to have someone that you're like, "Why did you only say we can only do this for a thousand?" You want someone that's going to be pushing the line. You can always say, "We charge $10,000, but for you we'll give you $5,000." You can make all of those deals. But you have to have someone that's going to push the line for you because they're going to be doing that stuff on your behalf.
AJ: Do you think you have to have an online business manager as a professional speaker?
Dr. Jen: I think it's going to get to a point that you have to, because you cannot do it yourself, and a lot of people are afraid of spending money. The one thing I appreciate - my financial advisor told me is, you have to spend money to make money.
Don is one of the best investments in my company and me, because I am not a details oriented person. I am a very big picture person. Don is very detail oriented. I am not, so I would be missing out on opportunities if I did not have her.
Some people are like, "Well, I can't afford it." Fine! You don't need a full time person. Get someone 20 hours a month, 5 hours a week. What do you need them to do? Do they need to just do contracts? Do they need to look for different opportunities? Figure out what is the pain point that you're like, "I hate doing this" and find someone, pay someone to do it. Say, "I'm going to do $500 a month. How many hours can I get?" Think in that way. But you have to get some type of help, because you're not going to be at your best trying to do everything.
Finding and Evolving Your Speaking Niche
AJ: You found your niche at the intersection of conflict and culture. How long did it take you to figure that out, and what did you try before that that didn't work?
Dr. Jen: That's my niche now. When I first started, my niche was at the intersection of race and sport. I did that up until 2023. I started to pay attention to what states were doing in terms of DEI - what they were doing in terms of the states, because a lot of states were starting to cancel DEI. I was saying, "What's happening in society that might make it harder for me to be a speaker?"
I think a lot of people are very staunch in their area. "I'm just going to stay here, and this is where I'm going to stay," and you can't do that. You have to look at if you're a speaker, what is going on in society, what is going on in the government, what's going on in the world. You have to have your finger on the pulse because it can affect you.
For me in '23, I started paying attention. "Texas, you can't do it. Florida, you can't do it." I started to see all these states, and I'm like, "I don't want to have a speaking profession that I can only do it in 3 states. That makes no sense."
Researching the Market Transition
With that, what I did was I started to pay attention in my speaking engagements, where people were leaning in, asking questions, really using it as a research ground. I did that because I wanted to start paying attention to what the next iteration of me was going to be.
I'm paying attention and I'm saying, "People are starting to lean in when I'm talking about conflict. People are leaning in when I'm talking about certain things." With that, I was like, "This might be the next iteration of it. This might be the place to go."
That's why I started thinking about conflict. Again, I did my research. I can't emphasize enough on doing your research. You need to know who's in your field. You need to know what they charge. You need to know what their topics are. You need to know where they are.
I was like, "People aren't talking about conflict within college athletics. People aren't talking about it in a nuanced way within certain things. So let me start building out this thing while I'm still talking about race and sport." Again, I didn't just say "I'm cutting it at the knees and jumping into a new topic." I melted it in together, because there's nothing more stressful than switching topics. I didn't even know if it was going to work. I didn't have any materials, nothing. So I had to really intertwine it to get it going.
We first started at the intersection of conflict and DEI, and then once we were like, "Oh no! Things are getting bad," then we made the move to conflict and culture.
Lessons from the Pivot Process
I will say I made the move, but I didn't do the full pivot in a very intentional way, and so some of the mistakes I made was once I did the pivot to conflict and culture, I didn't tell enough people. I had the ego of like, "People are going to know." They're not.
So I had to hire someone. I went into Kirsten Rodan's one million dollar email program, which was phenomenal and started changing how I emailed to the point where, after my first few emails, some people were like, "Who'd you hire for your emails because they are really great?" And I was like, "It's me."
Really shifted my email branding, then shifted my website, then shifted my one pager, then shifted my LinkedIn, then shifted the topics I talk on. Really was very intentional after once I realized where we were missing, shifting into that, to be able to sit at the intersection of conflict and culture.
You have to be willing to have different iterations of you and your work, because there are some people who are like "No, DEI is going to be fine." And then, when everything came out, they were cut at the knees and trying to figure out what to do next.
Building Market Awareness
AJ: That awareness - you saw the DEI backlash and you started preparing. You started pivoting. A lot of consultants and coaches and speakers do get blindsided by industry changes. Is there anything - is that just something you were born with? Or how do you build that kind of market awareness?
Dr. Jen: I think you have to have your pulse on stuff, meaning I was paying attention. One thing I would advise anyone to do is to set up Google alerts. I have like 30 Google alerts. So maybe once or twice, one or 2 times a day, I'll get Google alerts on articles. So you can do that so that you can pay attention to what's going on in your industry.
You have to know what's going on. You have to pay attention to society, government, all of those things of what is going on in your industry. What are the big things that are happening?
For instance, say all of a sudden we got paid maternity leave, paternity leave for everyone. It became a law. Everyone got 16 weeks of paid parental leave. I would say, if you are a woman who speaks on parenting topics, you need to go hard at corporations to talk about the importance of it. You need to be hard in what you're talking about on social media and LinkedIn, and your articles about the importance of taking leave. The importance of being at home with the kid. You have to be paying attention to those things to say, "This is my time to really push on the gas pedal."
I think for me, it's the competitor in me. I don't want to lose.
The Competitive Drive
I remember one time a friend of mine, right before Covid was like "You should look at having an e-course." She was like, "It'd be great for you." Esther is like a prophet, and I was like, "No, I shouldn't have it." Eight months later someone came out with the e-course. So now I'm behind sprinting. I said, "I never want to be behind sprinting again." Because I never want to be behind and taken aback, because there's the worst thing is seeing someone that's in your industry doing this thing that you decided not to do. Maybe that is the worst thing that you're like, "No, I don't want to do it."
For me, that's also why I wrote a book. I wrote a book called "I Said No: How to Have a Backbone and Boundaries Without Being a Jerk." Because I want to have a book out there on this topic with this title before other people. So that's competitiveness, it's curiosity, and it's not wanting to lose.
AJ: So harnessing and leveraging your competitive nature.
Dr. Jen: Yes, I tell people I'm uncomfortably competitive. Don't have me play your kids at monopoly. I will beat them. I don't play. I don't play board games well. I am way too competitive for those things, and so I just bring it into now with the work I do.
Future Goals and Vision
AJ: Tell me where you want to be in 3 to 5 years.
Dr. Jen: Cool. In 3 to 5 years - so I own a tech company, and one of the things I want to be on is the cover of Forbes. I want to be on the cover of Forbes, and I want to be the number one conflict keynote speaker. I want to be the person.
One of my goals when I first started as a speaker was, I said if you were going to mention race, that was my whole goal. If anyone mentioned the word race and a problem with it, you're going to mention Dr. Jen. Now I want to be, if you are thinking about conflict, hard problems at work, frustrations, you're going to be thinking of Dr. Jen. So I want my name connected to conflict where people, once it comes up as like, "Hey, we're having a problem with our team," they're like, "Have you heard of Dr. Jen? You should look into her book or podcast or whatever it is."
That's my goal is to be that expert that's known for the topic. Also, I think that's the biggest thing because if I'm known for the topic, then I'm on the big stages, I'm on the big podcasts, I'm on all these things, because I am that known expert. Rene Brown, holler at your girl. Oprah, holler at your girl. I'm going to be on your stages and podcasts.
Starting Over: What Would Be Done Differently
AJ: If you were starting today as an unknown trying to become a professional speaker, what would you do differently?
Dr. Jen: That's a hard question, because I don't know. I really got to know my niche very well, and I think that's where a lot of professional speakers - they're kind of like "I have this motivational story." Maybe you need to give some skills to them. There needs to be educational content that they're leaving with. I was really focused about knowing this content, researching it. I did so much academic stuff because I did not want to be caught on my heels with not knowing something that someone brings up in the audience. That was my worst fear. Even with my tech company, it's my worst fear - I get asked a question, I have no clue about it.
If I were to start over, maybe if I'm pivoting industry, pivot with a full intentness. Like when I pivoted from race and sport to conflict and culture, "Okay, 2023, we're going to build out a marketing brand. We're going to build out these things that show the pivot." So that way, people know what's going on and know that the area I'm going to be expert in versus I think that they know, and it shows that they don't.
I think I would just be way more intentional with my pivot, and how I market myself with it. Actually, let me take that back. Matter of fact, if I were starting over, the thing I would build out is my email list.
The Power of Email Marketing
If I would have built out my email list from the beginning, maybe I have 100,000 people on there. There's no question. My email list will be overflowing. That's where I made the mistake of not understanding how valuable your email list is.
If you are starting out, or if I was starting out, building out that email list of getting people on there, sending them multiple emails a week. Now I send either 2 emails a week or 3 emails a week. Sometimes I might send more. But that's the minimum. I go 3, 2, 3, 2.
People on your email list want to hear from you. I think we have this idea that we're going to bother people, so keep it to a minimum. You only bother people if you don't have good stuff to say. Have good stuff to say, be thoughtful. Every email shouldn't be selling them.
Think about the email list that you stay on, even if the stuff that you're getting isn't applicable - the one I think about who does it the most is Bath and Body Works. I get 8 million emails from Bath and Body Works. But I stay on there because I know I'm going to want the candle deal of $6.95. So I'm okay with deleting them, because the candle deal is worth more than the deleting of the emails.
So have something valuable and funny and interesting to say, but really cultivate your email list. Get people on, say interesting stuff, because that's a big thing I would have done differently.
Building an Email List Today
AJ: How do you get people onto your email list today?
Dr. Jen: Whenever I speak, there's a great thing called TalkSpot. So they do testimonials on there. What I do is right before my ending slide, I put that up there, give people 2 minutes to scan it, fill it out. Then that puts people on my email list.
You go to my website, we have it on my podcast - multiple ways to get people on. I would say, do that, find multiple ways to get people on your email list and just be interesting.
There was a person that lived with me, and she was in her mid twenties, and she would do Instagram and social media. There was a lot of the young ones want to be sexy. I was like, "Be interesting. People want to follow interesting people. They look forward to that. That's what you want." That's the thing I would say - have an interesting list or interesting topics and stuff, so that people want to follow you.
That is the main thing. I have it on my Instagram, LinkedIn, all these different places to get on the email list, the website, all of that.
Final Advice for Aspiring Speakers and Authors
AJ: We're getting to wrapping up. Do you have any last words of advice for consultants, and especially those who maybe want to write a book or want to do speaking?
Dr. Jen: I think that's 2 separate things. The first thing is, when I realized I wanted to be on bigger stages, I had to have a book. That's the key thing. All the big speakers have a book.
You want to be thinking about how to sell before the event, during the event and after the event. So writing a book was really critical to that success. If you want to be a speaker, find a niche. You cannot be the kitchen sink. You cannot talk about everything for women, everything for sports, everything as a pet owner. You have to find your niche and finding a niche can feel scary.
It can feel like, "I'm making it so small that no one can find me." That's not true. People want experts. So find what your niche is, and research the hell out of that. Be the person where, if anyone has a question in that area, they're immediately going to contact you about it.
Really think about what is the niche you want to be in, the problem you want to solve. You cannot be the kitchen sink about it. You have to figure that out. If you're going to be a professional speaker, figure out that niche because motivational speakers, it's a certain type of person. It's not just a story.
Book Writing Process and Getting Help
My book is called "I Said No: How to Set Boundaries and Backbone Without Being a Jerk." You can preorder it now through August 1st on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. The thing I would say about writing a book is a lot of people when they say about the writing of the book are like, "Clear out your space, set a candle and an intention, put on soft music." Maybe some people can't do that. Some people got kids running around, a dog barking. They're always moving. Some people can't do that.
What I did that was immensely helpful is, I have an iPhone, and whenever I was driving, because when I'm driving, that's when all the ideas come to me - I'm driving, or in the shower. What I would literally do is I would just do voice to text in the notes. So I would just - if all of a sudden a chapter came up, I would just talk about it into the Notes section, copy that, put into a Google sheet and then edit it.
Find the way that will work for you to write the chapters. It does not have to be you sitting down with a quill and a feather, and dipping your pen into ink, and writing on a scroll. That might work for some people, that might not work for you. You might be fine if you write from 4 to 5 in the morning. Who does that? Those are crazy people. I ain't no way.
Some people that works amazing for. I am not a morning person. For me, I was able to get this book finished really fast, because I was able to figure out what's my medium that will make me successful and find your medium.
The intention was, I wanted the first draft to be done by the end of 2024, and I literally those last few days I was sitting there editing and typing. So I had my first draft done, and then I went on Fiverr and I found some excellent people who do copy editing line by line, formatting all of those things for a very good price.
I did my cover on 99designs. You put the information in. You have a contest. I had over 102 designs entered and found it that way. So figure out what works for you. We are in a day and time, where there are so many opportunities to figure out what works for you that don't feel shame if you are not sitting down with your feather and your little dot of ink. Figure out what works for you, just to get the thing written, and then you can do the editing.
Investing in Professional Help
For my PhD, I had people that edited and did all the APA format for my dissertation. For my book, I found someone, this great guy who had a PhD in romance study from Duke's, and had edited 4,000 books. He did the Beta read for $87. He did my line by line read for $1,100, and I found this other young woman, a Black female, because I'm a Black female, and I wanted the last read to be by someone who's a Black female. She did it for $168. So all of my editing for my book was $1,300, and it was phenomenal editing.
Get help! Pay for help. Some people will be like "I can't afford it." You can't afford to put out a bad book. You think you can't afford it? You do not want to have a bad book out where people are like "Don't read it," or the reviews are like ones or twos that will be far more detrimental. So if you have to save up your money, if you have to go drive Uber for a few times or deliver, so that's your editing money, do it because the other option is you have a really bad book that no one wants to read.
AJ: Good advice. And on that note, that's a good time for us to say goodbye. That's a wrap on today's episode.
