Stefan Avivson Full Interview Transcript
Thriving Through Podcast
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Opening and Introduction
AJ: Welcome to this episode of Thriving Through. It's great to have you here today.
Stefan: Nice to be here. Thank you.
AJ: We're going to have a great time today. I know, just from our previous call that there's a lot of wisdom, a lot of insights and a lot of giggles. I absolutely know. So I'm going to start out with the question that I ask pretty much all my podcast guests.
Stefan's Path to Self-Employment
AJ: Tell me about your path to being self-employed.
Stefan: Well, that was a very quick path actually, because I've never tried to be anything else once I had a job for 4 months as a sales director somewhere but I had to quit because the CEO told me some things, and I looked at him, and I said, "Listen. I have 15 years more experience than you have in this niche of operation. Please mind your own business."
AJ: That wouldn't go over well, I'm sure.
Stefan: No, so I've always been a serial entrepreneur. I've been an entrepreneur since I can remember. And now I'm 47. So there you go!
AJ: Did you come from an entrepreneurial family, or where did you get your taste of entrepreneurship? Where did you get the idea that you could make a living from your own wits and from starting your own business, being your own boss?
Stefan: Well, I come from Denmark, and in Denmark you say that most serial entrepreneurs have done a newspaper route. And I guess that's where it begins. And realizing wow! I could actually make more money doing something different spending my time on it.
So I never thought about that. It's more about I just did it all the time. And I learned very early in my life that if you do something it happens.
AJ: I love it. I have a business coach who says success is inevitable, and it sounds like a very similar philosophy. If you do something, and you just keep doing it.
The Mindset of Success
Stefan: I would say, being successful is a mindset. It's a choice.
AJ: Tell me more about that.
Stefan: Well, most people struggle with all their fears, and they're not able to overcome some tasks and stuff like that. But by changing your mindset, there are 2 types of people in the world. People who live out of fear or people who live out of intent.
There's a world difference between these 2 types of people, because when you live out of intent, then nothing is dangerous as long as you're trying to achieve what you want to achieve.
But I guess it's usually the upbringing. I usually blame the parents. "You cannot do that. You cannot do that, you cannot do that." And that brings, of course, a natural fear to most people that some things you're not capable of doing.
But I guess either, if you didn't learn that from your childhood, or learn very early that you can actually do anything, then everything is achievable, actually.
AJ: And tell me about the intent side. What do you mean by intent?
Stefan: When you do stuff out of intent, you do things with a purpose. If you have a purpose to doing something, then you won't have the fear lying within it. It's like having kids, you know. You would do anything for your kids. You would even kill for your kids, and you wouldn't even have a thought about it.
And that's the way of living out of intent, because you want to be a good parent, or whatever you want to be good at. So it's a purpose driven lifestyle that whatever you do, you do with intent, you do it with a purpose.
AJ: Good. I like that. It reminds me of something I learned from another coach about having a deeper purpose. I may work with self-employed consultants, but my deeper purpose is to enable more people to be able to live that lifestyle have the time and money freedom that they get from being their own boss. So that drives me, and especially when times are tough, that deeper purpose is my north star.
Stefan: I would go a step further. Actually, now, your purpose is to help... and why I'm saying that is, I learned that 13 years ago in my life, when I had a deep depression.
Learning from Depression and Finding Purpose
AJ: You were taking deeper purpose further.
Stefan: In regards to helping, I had this deep depression because I had a billion dollar company I failed with. And then my mother, she died 3 months later, so it was like 2 punches in the face. I could not stand up any longer, so I was lying down for a couple of years, but I hated having a depression.
And what got me out of the depression was some Indian shaman on a Ted Talk who said, "What makes you most happy is by helping other people without asking anything in return."
And I took that to me, and I started mentoring, coaching, helping a lot of founders around the world. And indeed, I learned that what actually brings you the greatest happiness in life is by helping other people.
And that's also in regards to a deep purpose. When you think about what's a deep purpose, a deep purpose is something that satisfies you.
AJ: Yes, and material possessions don't satisfy long term.
Stefan: No, I actually threw all of mine away 3 years ago, and I'm not even joking. I moved from Germany to London, and I had this priest living with me. And I said, "Okay, I'm going to take my mother's ashes. I'm going to take a few things from my childhood," and then I told him, "keep the rest."
AJ: I did some decluttering too. We're moving to Vancouver, British Columbia, in the next couple months, and we moved in anticipation of that. We sold our house and moved out. Everything we got rid of pretty much. Everything we want to take with us is in a 5 by 10 storage locker. That's a pretty small space, and when you think about it, you look around, it's like what's really important. And do you really want to lug all of that stuff? So I can totally relate to your experience.
Stefan: Absolutely.
Advisor vs Coach: The Distinction
AJ: So you call yourself an advisor rather than a coach. What's the difference? And why does the distinction matter?
Stefan: I suck at coaching.
AJ: That's right.
Stefan: No, I really suck at coaching. You have a lot of coaching programs where you have to do things in a certain way in order to ignite the other one. I started reading some of the books and stuff like that. I said, "No, no, no, this is not a framework."
What people want from me is my persona, my personality, my way of being. Years ago it was actually one of my clients, he said to me, "Oh, God damn Stefan, you're so raw!"
Because I don't do the bullshit talk about "how do you feel?" And I just cut to the chase and start talking about what really matters, and that's why I'm now called Mr. Raw as well, and with Mr. Raw it implies that I'm raw. I'm direct. I speak from my soul or my brains, or how you want to call it.
Of course I'm empathic in my way of being, but I find it a very important part of my work to provoke, to get people out of their comfort zone. Because the point is, when you're in your comfort zone, you don't evolve, you don't move.
And every human being is very different. So if I was advising you I will throw you out of your comfort zone and then start dreaming or looking at the world from another reflection point, because it's always the eye of the beholder.
Everyone believes they're having the hardest time of their life. But you know there's always somebody else who has a harder time, even if you think you're the happiest guy alive, there's 100% another guy who's much more happy than you because he found more freedom in his heart, or whatever.
And especially in business, I don't do psychological sessions. Of course if people cry and I help them in that matter, but I also ask them to call a psychologist, because that's not my job. My job is to drive business. My job is to drive traction. And for the most part it's up to the founder himself or herself where his or her company goes.
Expanding Vision and Perspective
AJ: And it's all about the perspective. For instance, this morning I had a session with a new client, and he was thinking about some markets that are very small, because I come from a little country called Denmark, and next to Little Denmark there's a little country called Sweden, and next to that there's Norway. It's called Scandinavia. We are the Vikings. And he was really thinking of going out of his comfort zone and going into Sweden and Norway.
And I asked simply, "Why?"
And the reason why is that that's what people see. And they see their neighbor instead of seeing the potential. So we started talking about potentials.
And now we're building a European based strategy, not going into one country but actually attacking the entirety of Europe. And then, of course, later on we go to the States.
AJ: So you expanded his thinking. He was thinking Scandinavia, and you expanded his thinking and challenged him to think bigger than that.
Stefan: Much bigger.
AJ: I think that's a big flaw in most people is that they don't think they can achieve whatever they want. But you can indeed achieve what you want. You just need to decide what you want.
AJ: And then get used to being outside the comfort zone.
Stefan: It's not dangerous.
AJ: You know it's not dangerous if we stop to think of it objectively. But there's a part of our brain that thinks it's very dangerous. It's a saber tooth tiger coming out of the bushes, so we always have that part of the brain that we are constantly having to combat, because that part of the brain is what wants to keep us in the comfort zone.
Stefan: I call it training. You need to train it because the more you get out of your comfort zone, the lesser dangerous it is to be there. And, in fact, at some point when you train yourself enough, it becomes much more fun not being in the comfort zone.
AJ: Very true.
The Importance of Saying No to Clients
AJ: Something you said when we talked earlier, you said consultants need to position themselves to say no to clients. Tell me what you mean by that.
Stefan: Well, most consultants all around the world are living a sinus curve, meaning it goes up and down with revenues, and it's quite funny. I did it several years ago, and I thought, "God damn it, what the hell am I doing?" Because you go in and you help somebody, and they thrive, and they become successful. And the way they thank you is thanking you for the job, and then they don't need you, and then you're left without customers again.
And it makes no sense. So when I'm helping consultants and advisors and coaches and stuff like that, it's about getting enough ambience into the market getting enough people to start contacting you as long as there are less people that contact you than you can actually work with, then your work is not done because you become successful when you start saying no to clients, because that's when you can start picking your clients.
Because when you're before that, whether you want it or not, you need to be a prostitute, because you have to pay the rent.
AJ: So saying no to clients, meaning that you've got a full pipeline. And essentially, you got a wait list. If they said, "I want to work with you tomorrow," you'd say "I can't accommodate you. Tomorrow I'm busy with clients."
Stefan: Exactly. The way to do that, especially in the beginning, it doesn't have to be in the beginning, it can be you can start anytime. The point is you set out, "I want to have 14 sessions coaching sessions a week," or let's say, 10 sessions a week, twice a day. You have enough energy.
Then your first task is not to make money on the 10 sessions. Your first task is to fill up the 10 spaces.
AJ: Because then you are fully employed.
Stefan: Then you are already successful and hopefully, if you like helping people, you help them either way, if they pay you or not.
Actually some of the clients, 2 of my clients that I make most money out of right now are clients I started with working for free. But then I made them so successful that I get a cut from all that revenue that they get from the work they are doing. They're not consultants, but it's still the same.
The point is, as soon as you fill out your calendar with work, then you have a lot to do. And the point is, now let's say all 10 are for free. When the next one comes and says, "Yeah, I'm willing to pay for it." Then your whole way of talking to that person, because you're already doing a lot of stuff, that comes out in your voice.
People can hear it. If you don't have any clients, people can hear it.
And the other part is also those who you do for free, and you get to help them, you get a testimonial.
AJ: You start to build that social proof, and I think especially if they've had a bad experience with coaches before.
Stefan: And you have to remember Covid created a crazy explosion in coaching. Suddenly everybody became a coach. I was like, "what the hell is going on."
And so, yeah, a lot of people have had a lot of bad experiences with different coaches.
But you need the social proof. And you also need the stories because everything is about storytelling in the end, especially when you market yourself as a coach, because people don't care about you, they only care about themselves. So if you can't tell a story, if you can't tell a story that resembles them, that ignites them, then what's the point in even talking to you? If you don't have anything to say.
The Value of Getting Started
AJ: I love that suggestion. It's true for coaches, but it's also true for self-employed consultants. Go and get some clients and just start doing the work and do it for free, or do it for a nominal amount of money. You'll get testimonials. You'll get experience. Chances are, I know for me as I've gotten clients, my offering has changed based on test driving it. I mean, it's like these first clients are your guinea pigs. You get to test drive what you do, what you say, and it's so much better to get out there and get feedback from real people than to sit in your ivory tower trying to perfect your message.
Stefan: Because it will never be perfect anyway.
AJ: That's what I actually do. Most I get people to do stuff, because as long as you don't do anything, as long as you think about stuff, nothing happens. So you might as well, because you can't even improve something if you haven't even done it. And I tell you it goes for everything. The first time you do something always messes up.
So start doing it so you can start improving, you know. Beatles had to play for 10,000 hours before they became famous. They've been working hard for it.
AJ: Get out and start racking in your 10,000 hours.
Stefan: Get stuff done.
How Depression Shaped Stefan's Approach
AJ: I want to go back to something you said. You said you went through a deep depression after your business failure.
Stefan: And my mother died.
AJ: And your mom died. So you got that 1, 2 punch that knocked you out for the count. How did that experience change how you advise other entrepreneurs?
Stefan: Well, I didn't advise people before that. That was my reality. I built 15 companies throughout my life. So I've been focusing on achieving my success by myself or with the partners I've been working with. It gave me some time to reflect on what the hell is the purpose in life.
And also maybe it's called ADHD. I don't have the diagnosis or anything, but I also learned under my depression that I was just working as much as normal people do.
AJ: What do you mean by that? Tell me more.
Stefan: Well, a normal household. People go to work, come home, be with their kids, make the food and get tired, and sit in front of the TV, and then at some point, maybe go to bed and then wake up and then do it again, and then do it again, and then do it again, again and again, and again.
And that's what I actually found comfort in it. I don't know how other people find comfort in it, but without the depression I couldn't do it, but it made me able to reflect and think and thinking about well, what should I do here in life, and I found out that I want to help as many people as I possibly can in the very best manner I'm capable of.
AJ: And then, instead of starting businesses that turned into advising.
Stefan: Yes, I spend 1/3 of my life advising. And the rest of my time I spend on building companies.
Dealing with Self-Doubt and Imposter Syndrome
AJ: What do you do when you have a client who is their own worst enemy? Their mind is their own worst enemy, and they're full of self-doubt or imposter syndrome. What do you do with those clients?
Stefan: I capture them.
AJ: You what?
Stefan: I capture them in their own lie.
AJ: What does that mean? Tell me more.
Stefan: Well, when you think down on yourself, when you think less of yourself, you think you're worth nothing. It's yourself talking to yourself, telling that you're worth nothing, and if you tell yourself you're worth nothing, I assure you, you are worth nothing.
So it's all about what you tell yourself. It's not a coaching technique. It's simply a life hack, if you may, that what you tell yourself is what you are.
AJ: And you think it's that easy. Just tell yourself, instead of comparing yourself negatively, tell yourself that you are enough, and you're worthy, and you can do this.
Stefan: Well, the first thing I do actually mostly is, I tell them to read a book that's called The Big Leap by a psychologist called Gay Hendrix. He made a ton of books with his wife, but The Big Leap is a very thin book, but it catches why you have fear.
And when you start understanding your fear, then you know where not to go, because the fear materializes in front of you so you can see it, and when you can see it you can remove it. As long as you don't understand your fear, you can't remove it, can you?
AJ: That makes me think of it sort of externalizes the fear. Because how many people kind of define without being aware of it, they're defining themselves by their fear. "I am a fear driven person." No, fear is just one of the emotions you have as a human being.
And I think in most cases it's because people are not living their own lives. They're living their lives based on what they think other people think about them.
AJ: Not a good way to live.
Stefan: No, it's really not good for yourself. It brings stress into your life, you know. It brings worries. It brings all the bad things into your life.
AJ: And you can't have a healthy self-esteem if you're constantly comparing yourself and falling short.
Stefan: And another thing, why the hell are you spending time on people that are destroying your self-esteem? There are 7 billion people on this planet, and I assure you there are some good people out there, so go out and find them. And those who are not good for you walk away.
AJ: Very true.
The CEO's Stress Relief Advice
AJ: I want to talk about that one piece of advice you gave a CEO. You said you gave a CEO certain advice. What was that?
AJ: Do you remember you said, "go home and..."
Stefan: Have sex with your woman.
AJ: That's exactly it.
Stefan: No, he was very, very stressed. And you know, when you're a CEO, it's very cold at the top. Everybody wants a piece of you, and the best way to relax yourself, I'm being very honest now, and I don't even know if it's allowed to say, but having sex is simply the most relaxing thing you can do to your body.
You get close to another person, perhaps even someone you love. You get the comfort you get, the safety you get to learn that. "Wow! This is actually my cradle. This is actually my home." So when I go out not being in my comfort zone, I can always come back.
And it changed his entire life. Because that's also what happens to many marriages on this planet is that after you get kids and stuff like that, you start prioritize your life. And I did it also myself. Back in the days you prioritize wrongly because you have to prioritize yourself.
And an important part of that is it's the reason the humanity even exists is because of sex.
AJ: So if you feel sad and stuff like that, go home to your husband or your wife, get some sex.
Stefan's Upcoming Book
AJ: Get some sex and that kind of segues to another topic. You're writing a book.
Stefan: Oh yes! Today I got the cover. Looks good.
AJ: Nice. So why are you writing a book? And what is your book about?
Stefan: Well, I've been helping hundreds of founders and CEOs around the world, and the biggest struggle I see everywhere is people don't know how to speak to customers.
AJ: When you say speak, tell me what do you mean by speak to customers?
Stefan: How do you present yourself? How do you present your idea? People have learned to pitch. I'll tell you the best way to pitch, for instance. Do you want to know the best way?
AJ: Absolutely. I want to know.
Stefan: I just told you. It's a question.
AJ: You ask a question.
Stefan: You ask a question, because generally nobody cares about you. People care about themselves. And if you don't implement me into your conversation, then why the hell should I even listen to you?
AJ: True.
Stefan: So that's one way whether it's on a call online, or whether you're physically present, or if it's on the phone, for instance. When it's a call like this, what you do is you smile twice, in different ways. Because then you teach the spectator that you're not dangerous, and that you're capable of actually smiling in different ways.
And then the dangerous animal is not present. So you can calm down and actually start listening. And when you start listening, and it suddenly becomes about you, then it becomes interesting.
AJ: I love it so. Is it a how to book, how to speak to customers?
Stefan: How to speak to customers, and it's a guide on how to do it with all the tips and tricks both in regards how you present yourself physically but also how you communicate. For instance, on LinkedIn is a big thing these days, although it's declining.
When you start speaking to customers, it's you can first start speak to people when you understand them, and when you understand them you can start speaking, because then they will start listening.
When you talk to people, you have a conversation, but when you speak to people, you speak to them.
The Reality Check Method
Stefan: A thing I developed 8, 9 years ago was something I call a reality check, because I realized every time I helped a founder I asked them, "Why do your clients actually buy from you?" to frame the value proposition.
And very early, I said, "Listen, I'm just gonna call some customers." And I called, it was the first one that was quite funny. I asked 10 different customers why they bought from this guy's product. And the fun part was all 10 said the same, and it wasn't what the founder said, and I was like, "there's something wrong here."
And then I realized, "Oh, my God! Nobody actually speaks to their customers."
All, actually, only 4%. I've learned. I've done 200 reality checks where we simply ask the founder or the sales team or the organization, "why do you believe your customers buy from you?"
And whatever that is, the fun part is, if you ask 5 people in an organization, you get 3, 4, 5 different answers. They don't even answer the same. But when you ask 10 customers, usually 80% of them, sometimes it's 100%. But 80% of the clients, they say the same.
But the fun part is only in 4% of these instances, it's the same as the founder.
AJ: Wow! So is that your job is to bring those into alignment when you're advising them?
Stefan: That's definitely one thing, because the only reason you have a company, whether you're a consultant coach or have a huge enterprise, or what the hell you do, the only reason you have a company is because you have customers paying you.
If you don't understand why your customers are paying you, how can you even grow your business? People do grow their businesses. But now imagine you start growing your business based on the reasons why customers in reality buy from you. Do you think you'll sell more?
AJ: Absolutely because you're at that point you're aligned with your customer. Otherwise you're trying to force fit your customer into what you think you're selling them rather than what they think they're buying.
Stefan: Exactly. People buy from me because they want more traction in their business, and they want to move themselves further ahead. So I, of course, tell new clients that's the reason why customers buy from me. So if that is what you want, I'm the right guy, if that is not what you're looking for, have a great day.
Final Advice for Consultants
AJ: If you could only give one piece of advice to a consultant starting out just starting out. What would it be?
Stefan: Get yourself fully employed with clients.
AJ: Because it changes the whole scheme in how your brain works in regards to the next client coming in. Your mindset changes. You start talking about stuff you actually know something about. You can tell a story. I just told you a story about my client session I had this morning.
But he could have not been paying me, but I could still tell you a story.
AJ: Absolutely because you were still serving him.
Stefan: Exactly. Just make sure that you're fully employed, and that's your first goal.
AJ: Because that's a mindset thing, feeling fully employed. That's such a great piece of advice.
The Power of Good Questions
AJ: As you're writing a book about speaking to customers, what is one question you ask that makes your clients say, "that's a good question" every time?
Stefan: That's the fun part, because that's what all my clients tell me on each session I have with them. It's different every time. I'm still finding out what it is, but it's because I've been doing so much business in my life, so I can always pinpoint the errors on where people are doing things wrong, and every time you challenge people in their way of thinking, then it becomes a great question.
And when I realized it, it wasn't that long time ago, was a couple of years ago when I realized that I started saying it to my potential clients: "All my clients are saying in my sessions that that's a great question." And then people stopped buying from me because I didn't allow them to get the experience of getting a good question, because now I've told them what I do, but you are not experiencing it. As soon as you experience a good question, then you understand the value of what I'm bringing.
So I removed it again. Clients are saying, "wow! That's a good question. Thank you."
AJ: But the kinds of questions you don't have a single "that's a good question." It's situation dependent.
Stefan: All dependent on the situation.
AJ: So I'm gonna put you on the spot. As a last question before we wrap up, what question can you ask me that's going to make me say, "that's a good question"?
Stefan: I'll try. Why do your customers buy from you?
AJ: Oh, that is a good question. My clients buy from me because they have somebody to talk to and to guide them, because it's lonely. I mean, I work with self-employed consultants with marketing and developing marketing systems. And there's a million sources of information out there. But there are very few people who are going to say, "take this information, play with it, come back to me, and I'll give you some feedback on it, and then I'll celebrate you when you do it well, and I'll buck you up when you failed on something and help you find the lesson in it." So it's that relationship. It's the mentoring, being there for them is what my clients buy from me.
Stefan: Nice, so, you know. But do you actually know? That's you've challenged me to ask a couple clients.
And even also ask not only current clients. I've saved a couple of answers throughout my lifetime by telling people who went bankrupt, "Go back and ask your old clients why they bought from you."
And the point is, if you have a late happy client, there's a 20% chance, this is empirically proven, there's a 20% chance that they will start buying from you again. Because many times people don't buy from you because you don't reach out to them.
AJ: So past client, even if it was a different service that you provided, go back to them, give them an opportunity. There's always that favorable disposition that they have toward you.
Stefan: And asking the question, "Why did you buy from me?" If it awakes a positive memory, then you already have gained the trust.
AJ: Trust is what it's all about. Well, thank you, Stefan, for a wonderful session. And that is a wrap on today's episode of the Thriving Through podcast.
