ļ»æLeah Garber Full Interview Transcript
Getting Started in Consulting
AJ: Welcome to Thriving Through. It's great to see you, Leah.
Leah: Thanks for having me, AJ. It's good to see you too.
AJ: I will start our podcast with the two questions that I ask all of my guests. How long have you been a self-employed consultant?
Leah: I've been on my own for about 5 years. I started with a consulting firm and went out on my own officially about 4 years ago.
AJ: And what was your path of becoming a self-employed consultant?
Leah: Very interesting path. I had been working on my company's LinkedIn page for probably a year, just dreaming up what I would do if I worked on my own, what my niche would be, what my specialties would be, what I love to do. I was an owner of the page. I made my mom an owner of the page so I could talk back and forth.
I started posting on my LinkedIn page some of the content that I would have posted on that page. I want to share my knowledge. I want to share what I'm working on, and a COO of an organization over in the Metro Detroit area reached out and said, "Leah, I really like the things that you're working on. I really like the content that you're sharing. Do you have a business? Would you work with someone like us that we would click, and I could use your help?"
So she and I connected, and it was a perfect fit. I started working with that organization in Metro Detroit because she saw my content and liked it. It was valuable to her.
The Power of LinkedIn Content Creation
AJ: That's such an amazing story. It will hopefully encourage all of our listeners and viewers, because I don't know that there are many people that have that story where you have a profile, and you're posting on LinkedIn, somebody reaches out and says, "I want to hire you." So that is very cool.
AJ: Can you share a little bit about what that vision was? What did you put in your about page? What's the magic secret sauce that you had in your about page?
Leah: I think it was really around the fact that I had been a human resource department of one for a long time, and I was in the corporate world burnt out. I was working 60, 70, 80 hours a week. I didn't have a whole lot of hobbies or friends. My job was my hobby. Sometimes I got called in on the weekends or after hours while I was at dinner. I'd have to step away and do some emails or make a phone call.
So that was very much on my profile: I'm here to support you in creating your HR structure or support your HR person so that they're not feeling alone. At that time, she was the COO and also doing HR. They had someone doing payroll, but she was really in charge of recruiting, onboarding, the human resource information system, any kind of training that was needed, leading the leadership team meetings, everything. So she really related to that.
You want to work inside of the organization, get to know us and become an arm of me. Not just do your own projects and be here to do as I say, but be a part of that organization, be a part of my organization, and support me. So my vision of supporting the person that I was - that overwhelmed, everything's on fire, got to do what today needs, got to do what strategy needs in two years - I got to be that person to help the person that I was. I think that really resonated with her.
Building Long-Term Client Relationships
AJ: How long did you work with her?
Leah: I was with that organization for about a year. I did a lot of handbook work. We did some culture development, definition of core values, then building a performance management program that tied those core values into job descriptions, development, some recruitment. So really infrastructure building, implemented an HRIS. And then my time came to a close at about a year.
I delegated those tasks. We built an infrastructure that allowed for the operations manager and the office manager to take those tasks. And I'm a phone call away if needed. But actually, last year they reached out and needed some additional policy help. "Leah, we're working on this policy. We're struggling, and I know that you can do it in a matter of a couple of hours. Can we re-partner with you?"
So I got in and helped them with a couple of policies. Did some recruiting with them earlier this year. So kind of a rebound after 2 or 3 years of not working with each other, watching their LinkedIn, encouraging their team members as the organization grew and the team members developed. They reached back out because they remembered me. So I guess that would be 4 years of working with them.
AJ: That's a sign of consulting success - when you get repeat customers, when they come back.
Leah: It really felt good.
Defining the Ideal Client
AJ: Tell me who is your ideal client.
Leah: I work with small and medium-sized businesses. I like to stay below the 250 mark. I've worked with 4 employees in an organization, I've worked with all the way up to 500 or 600, but that 200-250 mark is really where I like to be. An organization that is preparing for growth in the 0 to 50, maybe 50 to 100 range, where we're building an infrastructure that hasn't been there before. We are building policies and procedures that haven't existed.
When you get much bigger than that, you've probably been doing things for quite a long time, and it's going to take some culture change to transition. I really like working with those organizations that are growing in size.
Sometimes they have a dedicated human resource person. Sometimes they don't. So maybe it's an HR coordinator. Maybe it's the administrative assistant who also manages personnel files and helps manage benefits. Maybe the operations manager does that. Sometimes HR falls under finance. So you don't necessarily have to have a human resource person for me to come in, but I like to work with that person to build that infrastructure.
The infrastructure is different depending on the organization's culture and size. What they're looking to do next. If you're 10 employees and you hope to continue to be 10 employees, maybe that's coming in and building a handbook that really nails down the policies and procedures, expectations of work, company culture, core values.
Maybe we're implementing a human resource information system that runs payroll and is a decent internet or intranet for your employees. And then it's off to the administrative assistant to manage it. And I just get to be a phone call away if there's a problem. In another infrastructure, we might be building something and then hiring in the HR Director or the HR Generalist. That's going to manage that. It's a full-time job. It can no longer be done by one person who's also doing something else.
Industry Agnostic Approach
AJ: You don't narrow down by industry, but you have a very specific target in terms of company size and where they are from an HR maturity level.
Leah: You got it. The size is really what matters to me. I'm pretty industry agnostic in that I started in automotive manufacturing, and I thought for sure I'll stay in automotive manufacturing in the Detroit area. This is the automotive hub of the world, and I thought I've caught myself here, and that's where I'll stay.
But since I moved into consulting, I've worked with so many different industries, and it's so funny - my friends and family joke that you're working on a handbook again. Don't you get bored of writing handbooks? No, not at all, because it might be the same policy headers, but your dress code is so different, and your code of ethics is going to be so different. Your safety guidelines, your expectations of behavior. So the organizations that I work with are so different, but they all need the same infrastructure that is tailored to their team, their culture.
The Importance of Client Fit
AJ: Sometimes you stray from your niche. Sometimes an organization is just too cool to pass up. Maybe they're a little bit larger than what you've worked with before, but they're doing some terrific things, and the leadership team has a vision that you're excited about. Is being excited about their vision important to you in terms of qualification for who you take on as a client?
Leah: A lot of times, yes. I've worked right now in construction, and my mom is in construction. I have some family members in construction - heating and cooling, plumbing, electrical. That's a really neat industry. And what they're doing inside of that industry is really neat. I've worked in manufacturing technology and improving operations inside of manufacturing. How do we automate things? How do we track things better? Coming from automotive manufacturing, that's a cool niche that they're filling. I've worked with some nonprofits that sit right on my heart. I'm really excited to talk about them at family dinners, and when I meet with new friends, I advocate and promote for them.
Something else that really matters to me when I'm partnering with a client is that they have similar core values that I do - their leadership team, that trustworthiness, open and honest communication. If we're just going to work inside of the leadership team and create things inside of a bubble that's never going to get outside of that, we're probably not going to get very far. If you're going to hide things from me, and I don't know that things are a struggle, we're not going to get very far. We're not going to be able to solve those things.
So when I meet with, when I have a discovery call with a leader or an HR person, the ability of them, or the willingness that they have to share their frustrations for me to dig in, and we actually get to know each other, get to know each other's businesses, that openness, trustworthiness - those things are also really important to me. So I've worked with some companies where the mission is cool, but I really love this leadership team. I want to support them.
Handling Mismatched Clients
AJ: What happens when you're on a discovery call and that trust and vulnerability, openness is not there?
Leah: It's a really good question. I have partnered with a couple of HR consultant friends who I absolutely believe in as humans. I believe in their product, their service, but they don't care so much about the heart tie to their client, and they might be a perfect person to work with that client.
So I have a discovery call. I've even made it to the step of maybe we're signing a contract. I've provided a contract to them, and they're not getting back to me. It's really hard to get in touch with them. They're not replying to my emails. And I think, "This is going to be tough." I've handed that over to a consultant friend of mine who doesn't mind that. "It takes them 2 or 3 days to get back to you? That's no problem." So I handed that whole package over to them. "This is going to be a perfect client for you. It's right in your niche. Yes, I could do it, but you're going to love working with them, or it's not going to hurt your heart to work with them because they get back to you late, or because it takes them time."
So having partners that you believe in and that do things a little bit differently, or that care about different things - that's really been valuable to me. I'm not a huge recruiter. I don't tie into an organization typically to do a lot of recruitment, but I have some recruiter friends that I am happy to make an introduction because that is their love, their niche. So that partnership has really been helpful in those situations.
Learning to Trust Your Instincts
AJ: Over the years, did you learn that the hard way? Initially, did you take on any clients where it hurt your heart when they didn't follow up with you? Did you learn the hard way, or have you known this right from the get-go that this was really important to you?
Leah: I knew pretty early that it was really important to me, and there were a couple of times that I thought to myself, "Leah, you need a client. You need to sign a contract. You need to get to work. You're starting to get bored. You need to do something." So I tied in knowing this is probably going to be tough.
Turns out it was tough. We got a lot done. I'm really proud of the things that we worked on, but I knew from the very moment that we signed the contract that this is going to be tougher than some others. So I have gotten caught in that a couple of times, but it's my own fault for not going with my heart.
AJ: Now, this many years in, even though you might feel the tug of "I really need a contract, I need a project," are you able to resist those, or do you still occasionally succumb to the need for money?
Leah: I was just talking to somebody yesterday about that. As I further build out my business, I really enjoy taking on the clients that I like to advocate for, that I'm happy to advocate for, that I love working with. So in the last couple of years, no, I haven't taken on a client that at the beginning I felt, "Yikes, this is going to be tough."
There have been a couple of moments that I took on a client, and we worked together well, and then maybe a new leader came in or their demeanor changed or their core values changed. The organization's core values changed and things changed down the line. But no, I haven't taken on clients. I've passed them on to my friends.
AJ: That to me says this is a sign of success as a consultant - to be able to say, "I know who I want to work with, and I'm not going to pass others on who are not a fit." That's really impressive.
Building Referral Partnerships
AJ: And the projects that maybe I'm not the best for, or that I'm not going to enjoy. I remember I was reached out to about auditing a payroll system. I thought, "I could, but that's not going to give me a whole lot of joy." So I gave him the contact information of somebody who loves payroll. So maybe it's not even the client. Maybe it's the project.
Recruitment - I enjoy recruitment, but my girlfriend really loves that. Off you go. I do consulting. I moved into the consulting world because I wanted to really enjoy my work. I wanted to be valuable. I wanted to be excited every day, and this is how you do it. You don't take on things that you're not excited about.
Transitioning from Referral Work to Direct Clients
AJ: You talked about how you work with your previous consulting company - you do some projects for them, and you have some that are your own. And I remember when we talked earlier, you said that those referral projects are not as lucrative. So how do you decide? Are you still doing a lot of referral business, or is the mix changing?
Leah: The mix has definitely changed. I started my consulting journey before I went out on my own, and that client found me on LinkedIn. I started with a consulting firm that I found on LinkedIn. I got to know the Vice President at the time who was really excited to have me join their consulting team, and I knew very well that working for somebody else or with somebody else that does all of the business development, and does all of the proposal creation, does all of that pipelining and gets you the business, says "I have this client and this project, Leah, would you like it?"
I knew that the money was going to be different in that situation than if I was doing all of that work, and it was so. I really enjoyed that at the beginning, because business development is not my forte - doing the business is my forte. And that was one of the scariest parts to me: finances, and the business development was something that kept me from launching my business when I first thought of it.
But when I first started, it was all business through that consulting firm. I was working with 5, 6, maybe 7 clients at a time - handbooks, maybe performance management, job descriptions, lots of policy and compliance and infrastructure work with several clients. Then I started working on the inside of the business. So as we bring on more consultants, how do we ensure that they're doing it our way? The handbook is going to be different. The policy is going to be different, but creating templates and tools and resources and connecting each other so that we're all working from the same baseline. How do we do that?
So I helped build that infrastructure and realized that if I can get a hold of the business development and finance piece, I can do this myself. And then I transitioned to my own business, and I still get reached out to by that consulting firm. Every once in a while, "Leah, we have a CEO, or we have an HR person, we think will really get along with you. We'd love to partner you up."
I really enjoy those things when you work with another consulting firm. They have a different pool of potential clients than you that I would not get. For instance, they're in Atlanta, Georgia. I'm in Metro Detroit. The industries and the environment is very different in those two. I wouldn't have the opportunity to work with a small nonprofit in Atlanta if it wasn't for them, so I feel really grateful to still be in their talent pool, to still be in their contractor pool. But I really have started leaning in.
Right now, I'm 100% my operational excellence consulting business, but I'm on the bench for them in case something came up that "we really want to plug you in, or we really could use your support on this." I'm there for that as well.
Overcoming Business Development Fears
AJ: So it sounds like the intimidating thing about going out on your own was business development and finance. Business development is the heart and soul of being a successful consultant. How did you get comfortable with business development?
Leah: So that was quite a journey. It took some time with my therapist. It took a lot of reading. It took a lot of internal work. But actually this book here was a really big help - "Networking for Introverts."
This helped me understand that not everyone has to be an extrovert to be successful at networking. You don't have to feel super confident and excited to go into a networking room to be successful in that networking room. You just have to do it a little bit differently. So this helped me to define my niche, my passion, and now I can just share a bit of that, and get to know others, as I am very much an introvert, and I enjoy getting to know others more than I like sharing myself.
So I've changed my business development and networking strategy to: I'm going to share a tiny bit about myself. Share that I'm excited about working on whatever it is that I'm working on right now. But then I'm going to ask tons of questions to get to know that other person, and if it might be a fit, then I can say, "Oh, my gosh, I do X, Y, and Z. I've done X, Y, and Z. And this is how it's come out." So I'm not promoting myself. I'm not good at the cold calling or introducing myself from scratch. But I can listen and find a need and address that need or share how I can support that need.
So business development was a scary thing when it was "This is how you business develop as an extroverted human." It became much less intimidating when it turned into "This is how you network and build relationships."
AJ: I'm an introvert too. So that sounds good. I'm going to get that book. That sounds great.
Leah: There's so many dog-eared pages and notes in the margin.
Building a Referral Network
AJ: So networking. You've mentioned networking and LinkedIn. Think about the last 5 clients that you've gotten. Where did the leads come from?
Leah: I feel really fortunate and thankful that almost all of my clients, all of them, except for that one that originally reached out to me on LinkedIn, has been referrals. So through the insurance brokers that I work with, the employment attorneys, the payroll companies, people that I've worked with in the past. They've all been referrals. "Leah did a really good job on this. I'm recommending that you work with her now."
AJ: How do you nurture that referral network? It sounds like you're really active in keeping in touch with those partners or potential referral sources. How do you systematize that to make it work?
Leah: I don't know that I've systematized it very well, but again, I think it goes back to that relationship building and relationship keeping. When I'm really interested in supporting someone, when I really like that human, I'm going to check in with them. Maybe not frequently, maybe once a quarter. I actually just had a conversation with a payroll provider partner that I've been impressed with a couple of weeks ago.
I don't have any business for her. She doesn't have any business for me, but I wanted to see how things are going there. Her platform has had a couple of new innovations and functions added, and I wanted to check in. So in those check-in conversations and asking how she's doing, how's business going, how's your workload feeling, how's family - I stay in connection that way.
I go to a lot of events around education. I'm part of the Society for Human Resource Management, my local chapter. I go to a lot of events there. So that's payroll providers sometimes. That's brokers. It's a lot of HR professionals. So going to those events and checking in with your friends - I would consider my professional contacts my friends.
Unexpected Success and Growth
AJ: Are you where you expected to be by now?
Leah: Oh, my gosh! I didn't have any idea in the world that I would be owning my own business at all. Quite honestly, I'm pretty fortunate that my dad has always pushed me, "Leah, when are we going to own our own business? When are you going to launch out on your own?" Since I started my first job he's been my biggest cheerleader, but I thought for sure that I was going to be the CHRO of a company, and I would be there until retirement.
And then a couple of years ago, it was actually 2020 - COVID is when I left the last corporate role and had to sit down and think, "What in the world do I actually want to do?" That's when this dream came to me. I thought, "I'm too meek to own my own company. I'm too reserved. I don't know anything about business development, not really interested in finance." So I had no idea that this was going to be my path until 2020 hit. I found that consulting firm, and I slowly but surely proved to myself, "You can do this, you can learn that, you can be good at that. You're doing it. Not only can you do it, you're doing it right now."
AJ: And you might have initially said, "I don't want it. I don't know how to do the business development, the finance." And here you are being able to do it.
Leah: And it took meeting some partners that I trusted - my CPA. I met him through another HR professional that uses him for her small business, and she's very Type A, recovering perfectionist like I am. I knew she evaluates her vendors just as well as I do. So partnering with him and having him there to answer any questions that I have when we do our annual and sometimes twice annual meetings to talk about what's going on in the business.
I'm not afraid to ask questions. I'm not afraid to dig in and ask potentially silly or stupid questions. On the business development side, I recently partnered with a marketing person who I met at a founders meeting a couple of months ago, who helped me with a brand refresh. So what was created from my heart, she looked at with a professional eye and was able to help me. "This looks really terrific. This is going to work in your industry." So again, working with partners that you value and trust really helped me get over those fright humps.
Competing with Large HR Consulting Firms
AJ: How do you position yourself differently than the large HR consulting firms when you're competing for business? Or do you feel like you're ever in a situation where you're competing with the larger HR firms?
Leah: I have felt that, and I know that I've gone up for a contract against them. I know that they were in the day before meeting with the leadership team, and I was there the day after. I think that my interest in learning the business and being part of the team is a little bit different than some larger organizations.
I dedicate my phone number, my email address to them, or sometimes even their team members who need to reach out to me. I really become part of that organization, having passion for the organization, learning the mission and the vision of the organization almost as if sometimes I've felt like I'm an employee of this company. I know it so well.
And I don't think - maybe some, but I don't think you get that with a lot of large HR consulting firms. They're there when you need them, they build product when you need them to, but could they recruit on your behalf and talk to a candidate that thinks you've been with the company for a long time? I've gotten that response in recruitment calls when I'm having an initial call with a candidate, and I'm asking questions, and I'm sharing about the organization they ask, "How long have you been employed there?" "Oh, no, I just met them a couple of months ago, and I'm not even on the team." "Actually, what?"
Well, I think it's so important to get to know the culture and the organization that you're working with. So I think that puts me a little bit different than other consulting firms, and maybe even small consulting firms. I really pride myself on getting to know the heart and soul of the businesses that I work with.
AJ: When you are dealing with a potential client, a prospect, if that is important to them, then you definitely shine. And if it's not something that's important to them, then you don't want them anyway.
Leah: Sometimes that's hard to take, but I just have to remind myself, "Hey, if we take on the wrong client, this is not going to be fun anymore. We want to take on the right clients and the right projects, so that this continues to fill you with joy."
The Importance of Joy in Work
AJ: I like that. So fun and joy are important to you.
Leah: Oh, absolutely. My role in human resources is absolutely a hobby - brings me joy. I go to so many networking events. I read so many books. I watch YouTube videos just because I love the content: leadership development, professional development, the performance management. How are we tying objectives of the organization to individual performance? Those things intrigue me to no end. And sometimes, my friends say, "Leah, can we please talk about something non-business when we go out to brunch?" I can't help myself.
Future Vision: Staying Solo While Partnering
AJ: Where do you see your consulting practice in 2 to 3 years?
Leah: That's something that I've been thinking about over the last couple of months in particular. I don't hope to be any more employees than myself. I really love the strategic work that comes at the top end. I really love the doer work that comes at the individual contributor side. I don't want to give either one of those up. I love all of it. I think one is a break from the other, and I think that doing them both helps you understand that organization a bit better, as I was talking about earlier.
So I hope to just continue to be myself. I would like to maybe take on projects that require me to partner with other consultants. Maybe we're doing an organizational development project, and I need some recruitment support. We've developed some positions that they don't have in the organization, or they don't have a person to fill that. So I would love to partner with my recruitment contractors or consultants to help me with that. So I'd love to be able to partner, but not grow my employee base.
I don't necessarily hope for tons of clients, because I take on the number of clients and the workload that I'm comfortable with. In the summer, I like to go boating. I like to spend time at my cabin. I don't want to have to sit at my computer or go to a client's office so that I can't do those things. So I can't say that I want to be filled with 40-hour weeks, or whatever that looks like.
I'd like to continue to take on work that brings me joy and be busy, busy, and then slow down and busy, busy, and slow down. I've read a lot about the feast and famine cycle, and I think that I enjoy that but a little smaller. So we're not looping such big loops. We're not feast, and then famine. We're like, we're here.
AJ: So you're on the kiddy roller coaster.
Leah: Yes, you got it.
Embracing the Consulting Lifestyle
AJ: Mild ups and downs, and you like that. You like being really busy, and then having some sort of fallow times, but not the mega roller coaster.
Leah: I think that's one of the reasons that consulting works really well for me. When I was in the corporate world, and you're expected to get all of this done, you own all of it. I would put my heart, soul, head, and toes into everything, and I was just exhausted after a year or a couple of months. I'm working 60, 70, 80 hours a week, and you just go. There's no end when you're in a corporate role. You just go and go and go and go and go for years.
And this consulting role allows me to work with a client for 6 months, maybe a year, and I am all the way up to my eyeballs in it. And then that client graduates from needing me. We hire in the HR person that is going to manage that full time and long term, or I hand off that HR to somebody internally that's going to manage it, and I get to be a phone call away and I get to relax for a little while and decompress.
I really enjoy being all in, then all out. You know the different kinds of work styles where some people take lots of breaks. I don't take any breaks. I go full steam ahead and then need quite a long break.
AJ: Love how you've made it work to fit what you want and need.
Advice for Aspiring Consultants
AJ: So one last question. What advice would you give to someone who's still in corporate, who's thinking about making the leap to consulting, but feels scared about the uncertainty or about whether they can do the business development? You know, all of the things that you felt when you were getting the tug towards self-employment but you were still in corporate.
Leah: Something that really helped me, and I would absolutely recommend, and I've continued doing in my journey, is connect with, hang out with, learn from people who have done it and ask questions around: What do you struggle with? What do you really love? What were you expecting? And did that come true? What weren't you expecting? Was that a surprise?
So before I took the leap into the consulting world, I connected with a couple of my HR consulting friends who had just started their business. I think one of them had just started, maybe 6 months ago, and one had been in it for quite some time, and I just picked their brains. I gave them a call, and we chatted about: How do you work with your CPA? Are you an LLC or an S Corp, or what does that look like? How do you create your proposal? When do you give a proposal to a client? Just questions that somebody who has done this a couple of times can answer.
I've had these conversations with a couple of people who have thought about moving into the consulting world over the last year, and it's exciting to share. Remember the things I did wrong, the things I did well, the decisions that I made. And would I do that again? It was really exciting for me to share that with somebody else, and I would hope, and I'm sure there are lots of consultants out there who would be excited to share their experience as well.
I wasn't necessarily asking, "Hey, can you please send me your service agreement, so I can copy it, or take a look at it? Or what are you charging for these services?" Not those nitty gritty questions. But what are you enjoying? What did you expect this was going to look like versus what does it look like? Those questions are really cool to reflect on as a consultant in the game for 5 years, and it's really fun to help somebody else make that decision and then check up on them in a couple of months or a year, and see if they did it, and how you can be of assistance as they grow.
AJ: Excellent advice. And with that we are a wrap on this week's podcast. Thank you, Leah.
Leah: Thanks, AJ.
