ļ»æInterview with David Penny
Thriving Through Podcast
Participants:
* AJ Riedel (Host)
* David Penny (Guest)
________________
AJ Riedel: David Penny, welcome to the Thriving Through Podcast. I'm so glad to have you as a guest today.
David Penny: Well, thank you, AJ. So happy to be here.
AJ Riedel: Now, we have been talking for 6-8 months, and we started talking early this year, and I've been following your journey all through this year, which has been a delight for me. So I want to start outā€”tell us a little bit about your path to becoming a self-employed consultant.
David Penny: Yeah, I'd love to, and thank you again for having me on. So, the path that it's taken me so far is I started in kind of the traditional corporate professional aspect of HR and recruiting, so I was in 15 years of building talent acquisition teams, recruitment, and really being on the other side of the job search table, if you will. And so it became a point in time where I saw the opportunity to kind of shift the focus for myself and really be able to help more individuals on the one-on-one basis as they're navigating the job market.
AJ Riedel: Had you been thinking about leaving the corporate world for a while? And what was the impetus to actually make the leap?
David Penny: Yeah, no, great question, because I fell into the category, like a lot of folks, of I went through a layoff with a Fortune 500 company, just a restructure of business needs at that point, so me and about half of my recruitment team found ourselves in that unemployed situation. It wasn't even at that point that I thought entrepreneurship was necessarily the direction that I was looking to go into, and actually had joined then as a head of talent acquisition in a medical company. So it was after about 6 months where I got to build out an entire team, which was great. It was then the idea of kind of making that shift into more of that one-on-one coaching type role, in part because I had such an amazing team in that capacity, but also just continuing to see how challenging the job market is.
AJ Riedel: What do you know now that you didn't know then, that you wish you had known then, when you started out?
David Penny: That's... I laugh, because it's a question that I'm constantly asking myself, because I launched the business formally in January, earlier this year, 2025. You don't know what you don't know, and so I think even where we had originally connected was the idea of a business coach, and that was something that not needing to necessarily reinvent the wheel on all of this, whether it's more of the formation of my company, and the LLC, and the taxes, and everything that goes along with the fundamentals of what you kind of need to get started, but then everything that's grown into marketing, outreach, follow-up. How to have successful conversations with potential clients, or even navigating some of the uniqueness that each client goes through, and how do my services support their challenges? And so that, to me seems like it's something that I'm never gonna be done understanding and continuing to learn from in that capacity, but definitely some eye-opening experiences so far along the way.
AJ Riedel: When we talked earlier, you had several target markets, several ideal clients. And over the course of a couple months, you made the decision to kind of narrow your focus. What made you decide, well, actually, let me take a step back. Who is your ideal client?
David Penny: Yeah, so I primarily work with, we'll say, corporate professionals, typically in their mid-careers, so 10 to 20 years. Maybe you've been in the job search recently, maybe it's been 5 plus years since you've been into it. They're usually folks that are currently employed, and so the idea of being able to run a successful job search while employed and working those 40 to 50, 50 to 60 hour work weeks is usually part of buying back their time in that capacity, because to some extent, it's a numbers game, and making sure that you've got your documentation updated and better than everyone else. But what you do after you apply is going to be the time to double down, and that's a piece that can take quite a bit. And so those working professionals in that capacity, whether they're looking to continue on their current trajectory and career path, or possibly making a pivot, are the specific folks that I tend to work with.
AJ Riedel: And do you do some of that work for them?
David Penny: Yeah, absolutely. So, the idea of taking as much off their plate as possible is really the idea. And so, it's not only going through what are now the best practices in the market, one, to stand out from the stack. AI can be great in many different aspects, but in the job market, AI bots is really a challenge. It both is, I think, a negative to some extent for candidates applying. But it also heard it called the avalanche of applications on the HR recruiting side. And so you see a posting that went up 3 days ago, and it already has 200-plus applications. If you're throwing your name into the hat, like we all did previously, of, alright, I'm qualified, I'm gonna apply, and now I'm gonna wait to hear a response back, you're going to be waiting for a while. And so that's where I'll assist in not only the customization on your resume and documentation, but what you do after you apply, finding those key points of contact, the decision makers, and work email addresses is a big piece to that. Not just relying on LinkedIn in some of those hierarchy DM strategies, but being able to get directly to those folks, and so those are all pieces that, essentially, I'll take for my clients in providing those services.
AJ Riedel: Makes sense. I had no idea. I mean, I've been self-employed for most of my adult life. I had no idea that there was something you did after you submitted your resume.
David Penny: Most people don't. It's really something that you need to be intentional about, and some of it's just not knowing. We were talking about my own knowledge base of coming in as a business entrepreneur. If you're someone that's in the job search, or whether you're quietly looking or unemployed and your job search is your full-time job, I don't know anyone that went through necessarily a detailed career services class in college that outlined what's the best way to do this, and yet it's such an impactful piece to all of our careers when we find ourselves in those situations.
AJ Riedel: Tell me a story or two about maybe one of the biggest challenges you've faced in this first year of building your practice and how you overcame that challenge.
David Penny: Yeah, I mean, the first one that comes to mind is really the services and packages of what I'm offering. Because there's Career Coach, I think is the most common, similar title, if you will, but Job Search Coach is a little bit more specific, and there's some overlap that goes along to it, so there's been aspects of branding that certainly go along with kind of show-me-you-know-me type deal. And so I think it's been when I do talk with folks, it's a service that everyone can understand where the need can come from. It usually comes down to some aspects of timing, and so that's been a big adjustment for me on making sure that I'm reaching out and staying connected with folks, even if it's not necessarily the right time to begin with, but what does that cadence, or what does that follow-up look like that's not robotic, it's not harassing in that sense, but much more as that support service? Because for most of us, the idea of working at the same company for 20 years and getting our pensions isn't the reality anymore. And so, whether that's restructures or cultural changes in the organization or work-from-home updates that continue to roll in, all of those are going to have different priorities around the timing and when we find ourselves in a job search. And so that's been one of those pieces that I continue to learn from myself of how and when can I best support individuals in that capacity?
AJ Riedel: And what have you learned at the how and when?
David Penny: Yeah. I mean, it's something that one of the resources, I mentioned, LinkedIn, in terms of messaging for candidates, or in my case, clients in that sense. LinkedIn has many different great tools, but one of the challenges can be that void capacity of, alright, I'm sending my application into the void, or I'm sending this message into the void. One of the pieces that I very much have leveraged is, from a tool standpoint on the LinkedIn recruiter side, folks that are showing, usually more quietly, that they're open to new opportunities. And then, for my own background and some of the more specifics of who I tend to work with, my background's 15 years in healthcare and retail, and so that can be a fairly wide demographic in some capacity, but it's not that I'm exclusive to those areas, because a lot of job search is going to have a lot of fundamental process similarities in those capacities. But really being able to recognize when folks are kind of raising their hand that they might be looking for something, and then making sure that it's that clarifying understanding that I'm not an agency, I'm not a recruiter myself in the business context, but being able to assist them in primarily gaining more traction in their search or that application-to-interview ratio.
AJ Riedel: So you find them through your using LinkedIn Recruiter, which is a great tool, and you're looking for people that are giving out some signals that they're looking that meet your demographic. Then how do you engage with them? How do you get them talking with you?
David Penny: Yeah. I mean, look, I don't think I've met anyone that wants to be in the job search. It's not a fun space to be in, and it's usually if you're in it, because you have to be, you're trying to get out of it as quickly as possible. And if you're in the more fortunate situation where you're quietly looking because you're currently employed, you have the flexibility to take more options and be a little bit more timely in how you're following up. But from a process standpoint, it's usually those individuals, when I mentioned they're currently employed, the settings in LinkedIn essentially can say, I only want recruiters or not anyone from my organization, knowing that I'm looking for a new opportunity. And so that's one of the pieces that goes along. Not to say that I don't work with folks that are currently unemployed, and their full-time job is the job search, but just that specific in that capacity. So, then from an engagement perspective, it's one of those that living my career in LinkedIn has been a benefit as I've started my career path, is just a sheer numbers standpoint. Connections are only as good as how you nurture them, so whether it's a big number or not, I've got over 20,000 first-degree connections, which, at minimum, from a LinkedIn standpoint, just means that I have a little bit more wider reach of profiles that I can engage with.
And so, it's something that the messaging has continued to evolve, and I have no doubt it will continue to do so. But whether they're individuals that I'm already a first-degree connection with, or that have those signs that they may be an individual that's in a job search, it starts with sending a connection request, and including a specific message of introduction. I've heard all the different stats on it's 50% of, should you include a message, should you not include a message, and I've gone back and forth myself. But one of the pieces that I want to have that transparency around, because I think that's a big challenge in the job market, is a lack of transparency, is exactly who I am, what are the services that I can provide, and how I can help in those capacities. And so, you've got character limits on what your message can look like, but it's something that's very specific, very not necessarily motivational, even though that's very much the tone and style that I operate under, but here's who I am, would love to connect. If I can be of service, great.
Now, it's never one message. If I don't hear back at that point, this is one of the key pieces, just like in the job search. The business side of it is, if you're gonna send one message and then just wait or hope that they get back to you, sorry, we're all busy. And so I actually do a five-message cadence that goes through that's all very customized to the individual and their background and their experience, but it's amazing to me how many times it's that fourth or fifth message that I'm getting that next response.
AJ Riedel: That sounds time-consuming. I mean, because you're not using a lead nurturing sequence that's like the same for everybody, but you're customizing those. How what is the ROI, the return on investment, and the time that you spend?
David Penny: Yeah. So in terms of ROI, I mean, it's something that, if we think about the number of, we'll call prospect calls that I'm having on a given week, I usually average between 8 and 10 prospect calls a week. And so just from an acceptance perspective, or from a messaging response rate, I tend to hover around 45 to 47% on the acceptance, and then usually around 35 to 40% on the response. So, it continues to improve as I continue to refine who I'm reaching out to in that capacity. But that's where it then becomes, because even once I get somebody on the phone, because I always offer a free consult call to begin with, and the main goal that I always start with is, let's understand where you're at in the job search, so that we can talk through if you have any gaps in your strategy that you can then walk away with tangible ideas in that capacity, and then if it makes sense to work together, of course. But that's really where, in terms of the follow-up, or the ROI, is directly correlated into number of prospect calls is going to lead to how many clients I actually end up working with at that point.
AJ Riedel: Right, so let's talk numbers, because you threw out a couple. So 45 to 50% acceptance of your connection requests?
David Penny: Correct.
AJ Riedel: And then 35% of those that you start that conversation with accept to become a prospect and accept a call with you?
David Penny: Sorry, great clarifying question. So the messaging cadence, I qualify that from a percentage standpoint of those that then respond. So there's great to have a first-degree connection, but from a business standpoint, that's probably half the challenge there. Then the engagement piece, and so that's where the engagement's gonna be, that 35, 38% on responses. And so those responses can vary from thanks but no thanks, to who are you, what do you do in some shape or form? Or, yeah, I'd love to hop on a call, send me over your calendar link. And so, that's where it then becomes, alright, what does that correlate into from a weekly basis? Look, even as a business entrepreneur, I've got life going on as well, and so there's different days or weeks or even months lately that being able to have that focus on generating new prospect clients is a huge time piece. And that's where I heard the counterpoint to a solo entrepreneur is that we're not really solo in this, because we've got different tools, we've got different resources across the board, but I'm still very much in that bootstrapped individual of learning my own business, doing all of it on my own, and enjoy every aspect of it. But you're asking from a time standpoint. Yeah, that's probably the largest piece of time of where I focus in terms of generating new clients outside of my existing clientele.
AJ Riedel: Okay. So, 30 to 35% engage. What percent of those move on to a call, would you guess?
David Penny: Yeah, so it's usually around 10-12% is what I've been averaging the last couple of months at this point, and it did not start out that way. It's very much been an evolution in that capacity, and all of those three main metrics that we just mentioned, the acceptance rate, I would say, has been pretty consistent, and I think that just in the nature of some of my background in some of those corporate connector aspects, or the networking pieces, or being a second-degree connection, or having mutual connections in more of those instances. But the response rate or the conversion rate is something that certainly has been an evolution.
AJ Riedel: Okay? I mean, those sound like pretty good numbers for LinkedIn. So you know, because you know that you know your metrics, you know if you want to get more strategy sessions or consultations? What do you call the call when you meet them? A discovery call? A strat session?
David Penny: Yeah, it's a consultation coffee chat. It's really around job search, is what the focus is, and going from there.
AJ Riedel: Okay, so if in any given week you're kind of short on those calls set up, you just put more you put more ammunition in, you make more connection requests, and you start more conversations.
David Penny: Yeah, absolutely. And then the other key piece is then going back through my CRM to understand, alright, where did I leave a conversation? Because one of the aspects that I really find challenging in LinkedIn is how you're essentially tracking, alright, when's the last message that I sent? Or what was the last response, or where did I leave this conversation? Did I get a response? And so that's one of those pieces of tagging or labeling, and a CRM system allows me to then kind of come back in and understand, alright, has it been 3 days? Has it been 3 weeks? And what is that next round of getting back in front of someone that either I haven't necessarily gotten that response after connecting, or, hey, I appreciate you reaching out, but timing's not right. In my world, timing's not right. I tend to look at that as probably a quarterly check-in at that point. But if there's any news about a company or pending layoffs or restructures, those can all be additional reminders to then see who I might be wanting to more so check in with to see if they've been directly affected or not.
AJ Riedel: So, does your CRM link with LinkedIn, so that when you've got a lead, or do you have to manually put that lead that you're in a conversation with in LinkedIn into your CRM?
David Penny: Yeah, so LinkedIn has a great, I don't know how new, but newer feature called Surf, S-U-R-F-E, and it actually then allows for those webhooks and integrations into CRM, essentially, of LinkedIn talking to your systems. I don't think it does as much on the other way around of systems talking to LinkedIn in that capacity, but it allows me to then have the tagging or categorizing options of I mean, you name it, I tend to have focus on not the right timing to some extent, putting a reminder on what that means in a couple of months, or, alright, I've sent the first message, I've sent the second message, have I heard back? Have they scheduled a call? And so it's then allowing me on a daily basis to go right there, understand who am I following up with today and what does that next message look like?
AJ Riedel: And the CRM you use, you use Pipedrive.
David Penny: Correct.
AJ Riedel: Right. Yeah, in fact, I use Pipedrive because you recommended it.
AJ Riedel: And it does it links really nicely with with using Surf. I've noticed that.
AJ Riedel: So I love thank you for kind of going into the nitty-gritty of how you how you're making LinkedIn work for you. I have a question on the other piece of LinkedIn that so many people don't work this part of it. On the other side of it is the, you know, sort of the really obvious ones of posting content, you know, so that we can become a brand authority. Do you do that side of it, or do you mainly work the connections and DMing relationship building piece?
David Penny: Sure. I started content heavy, and one of the individuals that I've met along this journey so far in an entrepreneurial mindset was describing it as phishing. And so, not phishing in terms of anything malware or cybersecurity, but literally the act of phishing for fish. And so the content side of putting information out there and waiting for folks to engage. So, I was doing, I mean, daily posts, articles, newsletters, really on a pretty consistent basis, so usually 3 to 4 a week for the first couple of months, and that was something that I used as an excuse, I think, even before starting my business, of, I need more content. I need to have all of this ready to go before I'm ready to actually start engaging with folks, or even formalizing the website or what that can look like. And the reality was, I did not get the results or the ROI on the content side. Now, that doesn't mean that I would have necessarily done it differently, or I wouldn't have done it at all. There were a lot of learnings that went along with that. But I've really shifted to say content for how I'm structured is more to support the direct marketing aspects and staying relevant and having that material that's out there, but not using it as a majority of how I expect clients to find me.
AJ Riedel: That is so important, because I talk to so many consultants who have kind of drunk the Kool-Aid, that content, whether it's linked, and primarily on LinkedIn, because that is the business platform, that they think that's gonna just bring people into their, you know, DMs, have people saying, I gotta hire you. And in reality, I know there are people out there that can make it work, because they usually talk about that they made it work. I know I haven't made it work. You haven't made it work. It's like, it's an important thing for credibility, that we have an optimized LinkedIn profile and content on some cadence, but spending hours and hours a week creating content for LinkedIn is not the best way to spend our time. I mean, I love the way that you have learned to use the tools of LinkedIn, called LinkedIn Recruiter. And then translating that into a really a version of a direct of an email campaign, only using direct messaging instead of email. But, because you've got it linked with your Pipedrive, with your CRM, you also capture their emails.
David Penny: Exactly. And so, couple pieces I'll just add in, and thank you for the reminder and summary, is the reason I tend to focus on the LinkedIn side is that if you're somebody that's in a job search as a corporate professional, even if you normally don't check your LinkedIn, you probably are right now. And so that's where I think some of the success comes from, because you're right, the email messaging campaigns could absolutely be the next round, if you will, in standing out in that way. But I think that's where some of those successes have come in. The other aspect that I was smiling because the LinkedIn is what we're primarily talking about. I did a month of 28 days of content on TikTok as well, and I had a I got a freelance video editor, and not only had the job search topics that I went through over the 28 days, but I also integrated into the Southeast Asia travel that I did last year with the idea of alright, what's engaging content that's not necessarily just gonna be not dry job search content all the time, but how do we kind of mix this up? And so, 28 days, every day of posting in that platform as well, and look, there were some videos that got hundreds of views in some capacity, and a couple comments here and there, but I was glad that I went through it. It was just another confirmation to me that, yes, are there still other ways that I can be putting content out there, and maximizing, boosting, or all the different then we get into SEO, AEO side of things, of course, and that's an evolution as well, but I think as we're both saying, it just kind of reconfirmed that I don't anticipate that I'm going viral anytime soon on a LinkedIn post or a TikTok video. And look, there's definitely people out there that are making it work. I think it's such a saturated market, coming back to some of the AI tools that can be great time savers in some capacity, but that balance of genuine content, and also, I mean, the idea of, alright, who's actually behind the screen, and how are we talking to folks? And so, I've found that to be an interesting combination as well.
AJ Riedel: Yes, and for us as consultants and coaches, service professionals, viral isn't necessarily what we're aiming at. We're aiming because you're and it's what you're doing, you're establishing relationships with the people that you serve. And being viral is not establishing a relationship. It's a it's a popularity contest. You're the most popular girl in school right now. Yes, but nobody's asking you out.
AJ Riedel: So I want to I want to talk about something you did something that I was so impressed with. Because you've just started your business, so I assume, you know, revenue probably was not right where you want it to be right from the get-go, so you had that pressure right from the beginning that you gotta get you gotta get some projects, you gotta make some money, and yet a couple months in, you made a decision to invest in a pretty pricey program. Tell me why you invested, and then tell us a little bit about what you decided to invest in and why.
David Penny: Sure. Yeah, it's something that I I wouldn't even say I wish I had done sooner, because I don't know that I was ready to it at that point, but it was in the context of, alright, a few of the folks that I'd spoken with, all other entrepreneurs, kept saying, you need to get a business coach. And you hear it enough times, it finally sinks in. And so, that was when I was in that search, found this program called the First 10 Founders Hub. And it really was something that, when I think about what I was looking for, because I had discussions with more of the quote-unquote traditional business coaches that talk to you more on that one-on-one basis of how are you going to develop, or where do you need to be focused, and what that looks like. And this at least when I went through it from a discovery component, and now fully through and still part of that community, it also provided more of the context around setting up the processes. And I'm someone that's very process-driven myself in that capacity, and so whether it's the different systems, or the different messaging, or different GPT AI tools in how we're still showing up in a natural language component, but also still making sure that we have that listening side of it as well.
And so, because in recruiting, in my background, recruiting is sales in some shape or form. You're kind of the gatekeeper in that sense, but it's a completely different discussion, or a completely different script, even though no conversation is ever going to be the same, but really being able to refine, in that sense, how I'm having those discussions, how I'm providing not only tangible services that somebody can take away from day one, but really being able to outline what those packages look like, and better being able to define those packages, what we came to to begin with, of who is my client, who is my individual client persona, if we're going to get super specific with it. And then also being a part of not only a community in the sense of other entrepreneurs, and having weekly calls of hearing what others are going through and some of those challenges. But one of the other added hardware bonuses was a complete website update from what I was using on the Squarespace side into WordPress, and so just like anything, there's an investment on the front end, but absolutely something that I've seen tenfold on the return.
AJ Riedel: So it's something you recommend to everybody.
David Penny: I don't know that I'd say everybody. I mean, it's something that if you are already an established business, if you're an established brand, I don't think this is a program that you're necessarily I'm not saying there's not components that would be helpful in some capacity, but it's really I was actually someone that, when I looked into this and started having those discovery conversations, I was a little bit further along because I had started from a place of referrals and in having some connections in that capacity that I've been able to drum up some clients in business in that capacity before getting to that point. But the I think one of the pieces is not only hearing that I needed more, not needing to reinvent the business, or the wheel in that sense, but the ebb and flow of, alright, I have 10 calls this week, but I have one call next week, and so how do I get more consistency around that? And so, if your business is that infancy stage, and you're looking for more process, you're looking for more structure, you're looking for more guidance in those capacities, then absolutely, I think it's something that anyone in that stage of their business should consider.
AJ Riedel: Okay. What criteria would you recommend to other self-employed consultants who, you know, they're getting the same advice you got. Get a business coach. Get a business development coach, whatever. What criteria would you recommend? They I mean, how do you decide on a marketing or a business coach?
David Penny: Yep. Have discussions. You need to have conversations with folks, because even in this sense of what we're talking about, you are recruiting yourself of who do you want to be part of your business, and the growth of your business. And so, some of that is how you connect in some shape or form, of how that discussion, or their background, or your vision, in some sense, that's all very abstract, and that's fine, but then understanding I think from a business coach standpoint, what what is their background, what's their experience, but what's their, and I'll say their style, what's their focus in terms of what level of business do they tend to work with? What areas of business have they been in? Are they an e-com specific, and you're completely brick and mortar? Well, that's probably not necessarily going to align as well.
And it's okay to say, hey, let me think about it and get back to you. No different than any other type of conversation, but when you're going through those and finding business coaches, because I get more LinkedIn connection requests now from other entrepreneurs or sales components, or B2B, or whatever, which is great, I'm glad that's happening, but it's definitely, you know, it can be overwhelming, I think, in some capacity of, alright, there's a thousand options out here. How do I even start to narrow these down? And I think there's some of these aspects of, hey, you gotta pick and choose, see what they have from a content standpoint. Is their content something that resonates with you? Is it visually appealing? Does it talk to you in that sense? And then, again, have that 30-minute conversation. 30 minutes will give you at least enough to begin with to say, I want to know more, or hey, I'm going to keep looking for other options. But I think it's really tough to do any or most of that just online without having a discussion or a face-to-face in that sense.
AJ Riedel: Absolutely, because again, it comes back to relationship.
David Penny: Exactly.
AJ Riedel: Yeah. Are you where you expected to be at 9 months in?
David Penny: I'd say yes, but at the same time, if I had the crystal ball to begin with, I'd be retired and done. No, I'm kidding. Where I'm at so far, I'm very happy with. It's allowed me the flexibility to not only support the existing clients that I have and seeing the results of not only turning applications into interviews, but the other key piece is, alright, who's getting offers? Who's accepting offers? Who's getting to their next great opportunity? That was the whole goal of this. It's all results-driven. And so, since March, I've got 8 clients that have accepted new offers. I've got three clients this week that are going through final stages and offer negotiations, and so that's some of those, I think, continued excitement pieces that continues to show the, I'll say, the proof of concept in how some of these processes do work. And then the other aspects of, like, I know I still need to do website additional updates. I need to, like, I met with two folks last week that were both freelancers in website design, and even though I just went through the design side, I still need to at least get the, I'll say, the basics on the SEO of meta tags to H1 to H4 to Google Analytics, and have you know, I'll say the basics plus established in that sense.
And as an entrepreneur, protecting your time is gonna be one of the biggest pieces that I have to constantly remind myself, and so I've as much time as I spend on the Squarespace domain of optimizing the website for some of those backend SEO search engine optimization aspects, I don't know WordPress like that, and so then it becomes the question, am I going to invest my time to learn the website design development side, and so far that's been no. But it's also something that I haven't necessarily prioritized, and priorities are changing constantly, so it's something that, where I'm at in my journey right now, I'm beyond excited for not only the clients that have landed new positions, but current clients that I'm working with, and no Dow clients that I'll be working with in the future.
AJ Riedel: Yeah, I just had another question I was going to ask, and it completely fleeted out of my mind. Oh, well.
David Penny: When it comes back to you.
AJ Riedel: When it comes back, yes. Oh, that was that was it. That's another important you talked about protecting your time as an entrepreneur, and that is so important, and so hard to do when we think, well, I can't I don't want to give up some of my hard-earned revenue to hire somebody else when technically I could do it if I learned how to do it, but it is you know, I learned from James Wedmore, a business coach, this concept of revenue-generating activities. And working on learning how to do SEO on your website is not a revenue-generating activity for you. I mean, that is, you know, the website I just I was listening to a podcast who said that our website is not top of funnel. I mean, people people may come into the website to find out if you're credible, because anybody credible has a website now, but they aren't coming into you know, it's not necessarily a lead generation tool, it's really further down the funnel. And, and which It says it's important, but it is not that important, because you're getting you're getting people into your infrastructure, you're getting calls, and you're getting clients without optimizing it, but it's recognizing that you don't need to do it. That you're you're you're interviewing people, and that we only have so many hours in the day, and if we want to make the kind of money we want to make, we have to spend the time on the things that are going to make us that money. So that is another important realization.
David Penny: Right, absolutely, and so is it that easy lift, high reward, or is it going to be a heavy lift for a low result? And so, I'd absolutely agree with you, like, until you're a name brand, SEO is one of those, I think, viral pieces that everybody claims to know, and the reality is, even if you're a Google Analytics documented expert. Unless you work at Google and know what the algorithm is, nobody really knows what's going on.
AJ Riedel: Right. Right. Heavy heavy lift, low return, high lift, high return, I love that. Explain tell me a little bit more about that.
David Penny: Yeah, so to stay in the same website category or discussion that we're on. So, if I'm gonna spend, let's say, 20 hours learning WordPress in terms of not only how to navigate the system, whether it's from a design or visual standpoint, or more of what we're talking about in terms of the meta tags, the H1, the H4, the backend links, like, yeah, I know more about that than I ever thought I would, and have learned quite a bit up to this point, but it's a completely different system, completely different domain in that capacity. So, is it then worth it to me to spend the 20 hours, give or take, learning that new system, or is it something that, at the end of the day, probably isn't going to have that much of a business lift for me, in terms of, are people finding me because of those efforts and scheduling prospect consultation calls and becoming clients. The reality is probably not. But the other side of saying, hey, I recognize that I'm gonna spend some of my investment around the business to say it is worth it for me to spend, and it's probably somewhere between $300 to $700 on an initial build-out or monthly capacity, and what that might look like, and then you can get ongoing support as well, but is it then going to be a an investment that I look at in terms of it's not gonna cost me really any time, it's still gonna get done, and now I can move forward. And that's the other piece where I can then focus my time in other aspects of the business.
AJ Riedel: Right, right. Well, as we wrap up this this episode of the podcast, I want to look in the future. Where do you see yourself in a year?
David Penny: Yeah, so, I am a lifestyle entrepreneur. I do not look at this as a business that'll be generational in that capacity, and that's intentional. So, where I see myself in a year is continuing to refine not only my own marketing and content that I'm putting out, and website updates, and look, everything that I just mentioned, none of that should ever, in my opinion, ever be stagnant. It's something that's constantly going to need to evolve and change, and so even though I've got a new, shiny website, I fully anticipate that that'll be updated in 12 to 18 months in some capacity. Maybe not a full rebuild, but so there's that constant piece of getting to overcome obstacles, getting to be that problem solver in those capacities.
From a business standpoint, I'd love to continue to increase the number of offers that my clients are receiving and having those additional options. And then from a business perspective, continuing to increase not only the percentages that we talked about, but the number of clients that I'm working with, or adding to, on a weekly or monthly basis. And so, right now, I'm averaging 8 clients on a ongoing capacities, so as folks are accepting offers or new clients are coming in. And that's a mix around individuals that are kind of in and out quickly, and others that I'm working with on a more long-term offer-based capacity, so I'm in it with them until they accept their offer type deal. And so I think that's going to be the other component that'll see continued growth from a business standpoint, is continuing to increase the number of clients that I'm working with. And so, I think all the avenues that we talked about today all have different levels of importance, and all have aspects of continual involvement.
AJ Riedel: Well, wonderful. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you being my guest today, David, and learning more about your journey through the year, and that's a wrap on today's episode of Thriving Through.
