Why Your Consulting Website Isn't Converting (And How to Turn It Into a Client-Closing Machine) with Krista Walsh - Full Transcript
Introduction
AJ: Welcome, Krista Walsh.
Krista: Thank you so much! Yeah, I'm excited to be here.
AJ: It's great to have you on the podcast.
Krista's Path to Self-Employment
AJ: Krista, what was your path to becoming a self-employed consultant?
Krista: My path started after graduating from university, and then I decided to freelance because I was doing a live abroad program where I was teaching English in Spain. That was really fun. And then when I moved to California afterward, I really thought I was going to get a full-time job right away, but then as I was freelancing, I just continued to not actually apply for full-time jobs. Eventually I recognized that this is where my desires lay - working for myself. So I got serious at that point and made it like a real business.
AJ: You mentioned when we talked earlier that you started on Upwork 10 years ago. So when did you make that shift from thinking of yourself as a freelancer to thinking of yourself as something more?
Krista: It was a couple years in. At some point I got serious with my desire to work for myself, and it wasn't just this interim period of my life where I was freelancing until I decided to go in-house somewhere. So yeah, it was around a couple years into freelancing, primarily through Upwork. I was kind of killing it on that platform - I didn't need a job, but when I got serious, I decided I want to actually make this a business and figure out how to do marketing, and positioning, and branding, and really find my niche, and not just do jobs through a job site platform like that. So I got serious and invested into figuring all of that business stuff out.
Learning the Business Side
AJ: Okay, and how did you figure it all out?
Krista: Million dollar question. Yeah, there's no "this-is-how" answer. It was a lot of trial and error. I did work with a couple of different other consultants and coaches to help me sort of figure out some of that basic stuff, because I had never run a business before, so I really didn't understand what went into it. So it was really helpful to have communities of people and have coaches to kind of just literally show me what I needed to do to get this thing off the ground.
Maybe I could say the biggest thing is figuring out a niche. For me, it's not necessarily a vertical, like an industry. It's not like I'm only working with attorneys or something like that. But it was zeroing in first on service-based businesses and agencies, not products or software, really. And then it was, okay, what I'm really good at is understanding your website and how your positioning and messaging fits into your website and your whole business goals. So it was niching on project type, niching on at least the type of business model that people had. And that was really huge.
Defining Her Services
AJ: Are you a web designer, or how would you describe yourself?
Krista: Yes, I am a copywriter by trade - that is how I started copywriting, writing for marketing purposes. I am not a designer or developer, I want to clarify that. Those are just not my talents. I know a ton of super talented people that I collaborate with on that end.
So what I actually do is - so you're launching a new website, it's usually part of a rebrand or the public reckoning with the refinement evolution that's been happening on the back end, and services, and niche, in business model. You're ready to bring it public, so you think about rebrand, you think about a new website.
I am the first person you hire for that website project, so I'm looking at what pages do we actually need to meet your business goals, possibly your SEO goals as well, if that's a priority for you. What does your messaging actually need to say on every one of those pages to position your offers correctly, and reduce confusion and get people into the space of "this is the person I want to work with. And there's really no one else."
So ideally, you should be getting calls through your website with people who are like, I'm not really talking to anyone else if you're available, because I know you're the right fit for me. So that is my goal, and then once our project wraps up, for most of my clients, I'm connecting them directly with a website designer that I have chosen from my massive network that I think will be a really great fit for them, and then that person, the designer slash developer, brings it to life with the visuals and the technical side of things.
The Agency Experiment
AJ: Tell us a story or two about the biggest challenges you've faced building your practice, and how you overcame them.
Krista: So I think the story I want to bring up is from last year, actually. I experimented with the idea of offering an end-to-end service, so I thought, okay, I'm doing the messaging and the strategy and the consultative part of this, but I know all these amazing people that can do the design and development. So why not build an agency bringing those people actually in-house and presenting clients with a full service experience.
And even as I'm saying it now, I'm like, that sounds like a phenomenal idea, right? And there are companies that do this, but I think I was looking at it from a messaging-first perspective, rather than the design-first perspective, which is how most of these agencies operate.
And I think the work we did for a number of clients last year was really fantastic. And I'm proud of those end results. However, what I found is that I really, really disliked the project management side of things, and that became my primary role, equal to the consultative work. It was like the project managing and managing the team and all of that.
And I just didn't like it. I felt myself headed toward burnout with all of that, and I wasn't that excited about increasing volume to the place that I could bring on a full-time project manager, right? I sort of was like, I don't know if I want to have that much volume. I kind of liked the very boutique space that I was in.
So I took a step back from that this year and went back into my zone of genius and decided I am just gonna make sure that I'm connecting my clients with designers, developers, and possibly photographers, if they need that, that I really know will do a great job, that I've collaborated with before. So they're getting this sort of quality control from me, but I'm not responsible for project managing everything underneath my umbrella. I can just pass the torch to somebody else who has fantastic client experience and eye design skills.
AJ: That makes sense. And how would you have known if you hadn't tried it?
Krista: I really wouldn't have. It had been a dream of mine for a long time, so I am really glad I did it, because now I know what it's like to do it, and if I were to go back to it at some point in the future, I would do so from an informed place, and I think maybe I would avoid some of that burnout that I experienced and just know a lot more than I did. But it also makes me feel really confident in the place I am now, too, because I'm like, no, this is actually, I think, my zone of genius. So I'm happy to be here in this space.
Scaling and Growth Strategies
AJ: How are you interested in scaling your business? And where do you find growth when it's you doing the work?
Krista: That is a great question, and that's something I am figuring out over these next couple of years. I think I am at a place now where I am going to develop IP, and I think that's where that sort of scaling begins, not actually with the format.
I have other stories where at one point I tried to launch a group program, because I had a coach telling me that you have to go one-to-many right now, and I just wasn't ready with my skills. I wasn't ready with how do you translate what I do, which is strategic and creative and intuitive, honed after all of these years of experience, into educating a group to do that? I had no idea, I wasn't ready.
So I think now, having more maturity in business, it's about developing the IP first, the framework, the documented framework of how I do things, and then from there, I can figure out where my heart lies and what makes sense from a strategic point of view of how to then scale that. Is it through teaching people to do it for themselves? Is it through teaching people to do what I do for clients? Is it through some sort of other thing, like templates, or courses, or things that are more hands-off products? And I'm really not sure, to be honest. But I do have that in my head, and I think the first step is the IP.
AJ: Okay, the intellectual property.
Krista: Yeah, totally.
Biggest Learning: The Internal Game
AJ: What has been your biggest learning since you began your consulting business?
Krista: That it is an internal game, I think. And I'm sure every time I say that, I'm like, this is not news to anybody, right? But that's really how I feel, yeah.
AJ: Yeah, it is and it isn't. I mean, you know, it's one of those things where it shouldn't be a surprise, but it is. I think for almost everybody, they don't expect that the obstacles or the resistance is going to come from our own minds.
Krista: Yes. You don't even sometimes realize that that is what the obstacle is, especially early on, it was like you know, I sort of thought the obstacle was like, oh, it's my business model, I'm not succeeding because I don't have a group program, or sort of like these, in actuality, pretty surface-level things. And that business coach example is a great story, I think, to illustrate that, because this is no shade on that coach in particular, but it was just sort of like, I was in a place in my business, and in my life, maybe, where I was really uncomfortable with making decisions for myself about big stuff. I did not trust myself.
Because I had all these stories about I'm not good at... I'm not a business owner, I've never even worked for a startup, I don't know anything. All this stuff. So I was really looking for somebody to tell me what to do, and I found somebody who would do that. And so they would tell me what to do, and I would kind of do it with a lot of weird feelings about it, because I wasn't really addressing my thoughts about it and why I didn't want to do it. I was just sort of like, well, I've got to do it, even though I'm feeling weird about it.
So I would kind of do these things in this weird panic rush and put it out there. And then maybe it wouldn't go the way I hoped, so I would take that as the sign that it wasn't the direction. Like, well, it's not selling, so therefore it's not the thing for me. Rather than realizing that perhaps it wasn't selling because I was not really wanting it to sell. Like, I wasn't confident that I could deliver, or I didn't really actually want to do that.
And so now, I'm just sort of recognizing that a lot of it starts within first, and figuring out what you want, and yes, looking at the practical side of things, but I just know myself - I'm not gonna put my energy behind something that I don't really, really want, and that I also believe that I can do, right? It's like the self-trust of delivery and capacity and all of that.
Learning to Trust Yourself
AJ: How did you learn to trust yourself so that you didn't need somebody externally to tell you what to do?
Krista: The short answer is therapy, for sure. Yeah, first it was realizing that that's what was going on. Having a therapist really helped me figure that out. And then, I guess the other way is just practice - doing something because I wanted to do it, and also being okay when I changed my mind, and not feeling like, oh, it was a waste of time, because I changed my mind, and therefore I can't trust myself next time I want to do something, because it might be a waste of time again. If I changed my mind, or it turned out it wasn't right, or it didn't work the way I wanted it to, or something like that.
I guess realizing that nothing is a waste of time, because you learned something, or you put it out there, but then you tweaked it based on feedback, and that's actually all part of it. You don't have to have it perfect, and if something isn't immediately a success the way you envision it in your head, that's very much a good thing, right? Because then you can just, if you believe in it, look at what's happening and see how you can basically fix it to make it work.
Websites as Closers, Not Lead Generators
AJ: I want to switch to website strategy and marketing, because when we were having a conversation, you said websites are closers, not necessarily lead generators for consultants. Can you walk us through what that means practically? So when somebody lands on a consultant's website, what should happen? What should they have there?
Krista: Yes. So, let me walk you through what I think a lot of people think their website is, and then how I view it, actually. A lot of people view their website as this one-to-one reflection of their business, so it's like, whatever's happening in my business, like, all the services I have, the people that I serve, the way that business works, it all needs to be reflected very one-to-one in my website.
And so you end up with this website that is functioning basically like a brochure for your business, where you're like, okay, here are my services, here's what I do. And the way I view it is a lot more focused than that. Instead of viewing it as this marketing tool, or as this brochure for your business, it's a closer. It's the last place somebody goes before they're deciding to work with you.
So if you imagine a client, a potential client who's an ideal client. A lot of times with consultants, referrals. So, they've gotten a couple of referrals from trusted people, so they have your website, and they have two other people's websites up, and they're looking at them all. And they're in decision mode, they're in hiring mode. Who is worth my time talking to? Who am I feeling like solves the problems that I have, or can help me reach the goal that I have? And who is probably saying something different?
And then that's how they make decisions. So when you come on your website with that lens, I think it becomes a lot more clear about what actually needs to be said, what can sort of come off, what can we pull back on, what pages do we actually not need, what pages do we need to reach those goals and speak to that person who's in decision mode?
Biggest Website Mistakes Consultants Make
AJ: What are the biggest mistakes, website mistakes, that you see consultants making that hurt their credibility? Is it that it's a brochure? Or what is the mistake?
Krista: I think the biggest mistakes I see is basically saying the same things as everybody else, like, your direct competition, your close competition. And I'm not saying it's a mistake because this is common advice. Like, nobody's wrong for doing this. But the common advice is, on your website, you need to state what you do and who you do it for. You need to call out the pain points of your client, and you need to then showcase the outcomes that you provide, the promises, however you want to say it.
But the problem is when somebody is in decision mode and they're comparing you to other direct competitors, what you end up with is everybody is saying the exact same thing, because they're all following that exact messaging 101 advice. There's only so many different ways you can talk about the same pain points for the same type of client. There's only so many ways you are all promising the same outcomes, and so it becomes really hard for a client to look at these different websites and be like, I really don't know the differences between these people, and I really don't know who's gonna be the best fit for me.
And so they either end up talking to everybody, and you get these calls of people who are like, okay, you seem great, so I'm talking to a couple other people this week, so I'll let you know, and it's kind of this lukewarm feeling, because the client isn't sure. Or you get someone who's just gonna go based on price. If you are showcasing your prices, they're gonna go with the person who is a lower rate, because they don't see the difference, right?
So if you are somebody who has higher rates than average because you've earned it, but it's not coming through in a distinctive message, that's not gonna land. So instead of doing this messaging 101, like, here's what I do, here's who I do it for, I solve these pain points and promise these outcomes, what I say to do is instead focus the majority of your messaging on what makes you different.
Usually with consultants, it's something around the way that you think or approach problem solving. How are you thinking about things different than your colleague? Or maybe different than those big firms that they may be considering? And really wrapping everything around that. So if you are talking about outcomes, you're talking about it with the lens of these outcomes because of the way that I'm thinking differently about these things. Or you may think you have these problems, but you actually have these problems, and just really showcasing the way you think throughout everything, so that not only does your website immediately stand out as, wow, this person is saying something really different and unique in this space, and that is an instant credibility authority booster, because it seems like you know your shit, and you do.
But also, the people who resonate with that will then come into calls and be like, I really like your thinking about this, so I already trust you, right?
Helping Consultants Articulate Their Value
AJ: So, when we talked earlier, you mentioned that consultants struggle with marketing because they don't have tangible deliverables. So how do you help them articulate their value and differentiate themselves on their website?
Krista: Yeah, I think it goes back to this showcasing of your perspective and point of view more than what you're giving people. So definitely pulling back - a lot of people don't have deliverables, but sometimes deliverables in consultant world is this many workshops per quarter, or something, or you're gonna get access to me this many times, or something like that. Or maybe it is deliverables, like a brand strategy document, or we're gonna create your HR handbook, or whatever.
Pulling back on the what they get, and really focusing on, okay, here's what I actually believe in my industry, here's how I'm thinking differently, and here is why this actually helps you solve the problems that you're having. And wrapping everything around that instead of focusing on these things that don't actually matter.
And I think the clients that care about the what they're getting is probably not the client that most consultant wants. You don't want to quibble over the format of deliverables, or how many workshops you're getting. You want to work with somebody who is just like, no, we trust you. Whatever way you want to do this with us, we know that you're gonna get us to the place that we want.
Getting Past Generic Language
AJ: How do you help consultants get past that generic language? You know, I mean, because you're talking about, don't do the "I help this person do this," but there are consultants who are also even further back of "I help businesses grow." So how do you get through to them, and then help them find that messaging that actually differentiates them?
Krista: Right, and to clarify, I'm not saying you can't have an "I help" statement, but just that it has to be with your point of view in there. To your point, not "I help businesses increase revenue," because your competitor could say that, but you know, I help businesses get ready to scale via this specific framework that you've created, or something like that. Something that makes it clear that you're coming from a position of authority.
The how that we do it is kind of twofold. It's like a Venn diagram of you - your vision, the way you actually think, and talk - having basically a workshop with you where I'm helping you figure out that kind of stuff. And then the other side of the Venn diagram is your clients, your ideal clients, the people that trust you, you love working with, they have the funds to pay you the rates that you want to be paid.
And figuring out how they're talking about the problems, what are their underlying mindsets and beliefs underneath that at that moment of hiring. And for that, I will talk to your clients, right? The clients of my clients, I ask to be connected with at least 3 people, but usually it's more like 8 who match this ideal client, and I'm interviewing them. So we do phone calls, 30-minute phone calls, and I'm diving deep and getting those transcripts, and then going through the transcripts to figure out what are the patterns here?
AJ: Wow. That's a big differentiator on messaging, I would think. You know, that you do that, that you take the time to do the research, and don't pass it back to the client.
Krista: Yeah, I find a lot of us are intimidated by the idea of interviewing our own past clients. It feels like a weird ask, it feels like an uncomfortable 30 minutes, and also, I've done this literally hundreds of times now, so I know how to keep it a tight 30 minutes or less, and still get what I need to get out of them, so it's a skill.
But yeah, I think it's really easier to be like, hey, Sheila, I know we worked together last year, I'm now redoing my website, and my website copywriter wants to talk to some clients I really loved working with, can I connect you with her? And that just feels like an easier ask on the client side.
AJ: And probably more objectivity on their part. I mean, their consultant may not even know the right questions to ask.
Krista: Exactly, yeah.
AI and Sophisticated Clients
AJ: You said we talked about AI, and you said that it isn't hurting your business because your clients are sophisticated. Tell me more about what you mean by that.
Krista: Yeah, I think by sophisticated, I just mean experienced and mature in their business. Like, for example, somebody who knows nothing about photography would get the latest iPhone and be wowed at the photos that they're taking, because they're just like, this is better than anything I've ever had before. Look at the detail, look at whatever.
But it's just a tool. And a professional photographer is looking at those iPhone photos and is like, yeah, this is better than a digital camera that we had in 2010, but this is nowhere near the level of the professional taste and eye in composition of professional photographer. And the people who hire professional photographers would never be like, we're just gonna do it with our iPhone. Not really, because they get it, they sort of have this level of understanding, and I think it's really similar with copywriters.
The people who ask me this AI question are usually lay people who just would use ChatGPT or Claude or something like that, and get the output, and be like, amazing, it sounds better than anything I could ever write. And it's like, okay, but they're not really getting why it's not quality and why it's not strategic, versus I've never actually had a lead or a client ask me, like, why should we hire you and not just use an AI? Because they also understand it. They've been in business enough, they've written enough copy, they've hired enough copywriters that they're really understanding the difference there. That on top of so much of what I do, is the strategy and the consultative work before the words ever get written. The words are kind of the very last piece of the puzzle.
So there's a lot that I just I'm not sure how you would be able to use an AI to even do that part of it.
When to Stick vs. When to Pivot
AJ: I want to go back to your agency experiment story. How do you know when to stick with something versus when to pivot?
Krista: Like, me personally? I think it manifests for me like a common recurrent thought. The first time it happens, especially if it's a pretty big pivot, like for that story, reverting back to a solo consultant and service provider after having done the agency thing that I thought was my dream and my endgame. Really felt like initially a big step back, and so I would have the thought of, I'm not happy, I wish I was doing this thing that I was doing before, and then I would bat it away. You know, I'd be like, no, no, that's crazy.
But then, it just keeps coming up, and coming up, and coming up, and so then eventually I start to be like, I need to pay attention to this. And I'll look at it more closely, and I think it really takes time for me to come to terms with that's what I actually really want, and allow all the fears to kind of dissipate and let it bubble to the surface.
And then I will usually follow it, but I wish I was faster at it, and more instantly like, oh my god, yeah, I'm clear about not wanting this, but for me, it does take time to sift through all of the other beliefs that I have about that thing.
AJ: And you have to probably sit in the misery a little bit.
Krista: Before you say, I really don't want to do this.
Krista: Exactly, yeah.
Practical Website Advice
AJ: I want to get some practical advice. If a consultant has a website that's not converting warm leads into clients, what are the first three things they should look at?
Krista: So, the first thing I would do is look, open your website, open 3 of your closest competitors, so people who are kind of doing the same thing for the same type of client, and look at their websites. And try to look at it through the lens of somebody that's not you, and see if there's an actual distinction. Is it - are you able to tell how you're different from these other people? Are you saying something different?
And if not, then maybe you have either an articulation problem, like, I know I have these differentiators, and I have this position, and it comes through when I work with clients, and the things they say to me, but it's just not coming through in my messaging on my website. Or, potentially, you have an actual positioning problem, where you actually don't know how to answer that question of, well, I actually don't know what I'm doing that's different yet. I think there might be something, but I don't know what it is. And that is definitely a bigger problem, right? And that would be maybe you'd benefit from working with another consultant, or a coach, or somebody who can sort of draw those answers out of you over several months.
But if you're in that first camp where you're like, I know what it is, I just can't seem to say it, or I don't have the time to get clear on my website stuff, or whatever, that's where you hire somebody like me, who can then just get it out of you quickly, put it together in a format for your website, and then you can relaunch.
Target Client Profile
AJ: Do you work with solopreneurs and self-employed consultants, or do you work with more bigger companies?
Krista: It's both, yeah. I don't work with huge enterprises at all, I'm not working with Ogilvy, or something like that. But yeah, so if it's a larger company, it's like a boutique company, probably 20-ish employees, but a lot, a lot of solos, independents, or people with what I call micro companies - it's them and maybe a team of 3.
AJ: Okay, that's your sweet spot?
Krista: Yeah.
Warning Signs Your Website Needs Help
AJ: How would I know - what are the warning signs that I might need to hire somebody like you?
Krista: I know I just said this, but part of it is you cannot differentiate between you and a close competitor, for sure. Maybe you haven't even got a more earlier messaging problem, where it's actually not clear what you do. That is something that is certainly an issue for some people.
Usually with consultants, it's like, they're clear on what they do, but they sort of got caught up in this jargony land, where you're trying to make it sound really profound and interesting, or you've gone to AI to help you brainstorm, and AI loves these sentences that are sounding amazing, but saying literally nothing. "Transforming companies through strategic insights," or something like that. And you're like, wait, what?
AJ: Yeah, English, please.
Krista: Exactly, yeah, so just say what you actually mean and not worry about sounding super impressive. Yeah, or maybe if you do have a strong personality, and the way that you show up with clients is unique, and that's not coming through, that could be a thing as well. Your personality just isn't coming through, so then when people meet you, if they've gone to your website, it's sort of like a mismatch of, wait. Oh my god, you're actually extremely irreverent, and you're dropping fucks here and there, or whatever, and we did not expect that, right? And so that would need to come through.
So, yeah, differentiation, just basic clarity, if that's not a thing for you, and then, personality.
Corporate Background Influence
AJ: I think that's hard for us to see on our own - what part of our personality needs to come through? I mean, I know for me, it's like, how would I communicate my personality on my website? I don't know if I am. Who knows?
Krista: Yeah, I think most people, like, for me, for example, I don't have a big personality. So I don't worry too much about voice when I'm writing for myself, or clients like me, where it's just sort of like, no, we're kind of just normal people. You know, but then I have worked with clients where they have a very strong personality, and so I think you kind of know, you know what I mean? Like, if you're like, no, no, no, I talk super differently than everybody else, I'm so bubbly, I'm constantly dropping Taylor Swift references, or whatever it is, if you know that you have this larger-than-life personality, or a personality just super different, I do think you'll kind of know that, and maybe the struggle is just but I know it's not coming through in how I write, because I'm coming from corporate America, and we were told never to write like that.
Conventional Wisdom to Question
AJ: You've already talked about one piece of conventional marketing wisdom that's wrong, and that is the information to put on your website. Is there any other conventional website marketing wisdom that you want to shift our perspective on?
Krista: Yeah, okay. So things I talk about a lot are speaking to the person who's hiring somebody today, not so we don't really have to do this thing where we're explaining what consulting is, or anything like that. No, no. We don't care about them, because they're just not ready. Use your other marketing to get people ready, and then your website is the bottom of funnel closing tool. So you can sort of pull out stuff that doesn't speak to that person who's already solution aware, and they're deciding who to hire.
I think thinking beyond messaging 101 stuff. There's a sentence that goes around the internet a lot from marketers, which is your website needs to clearly state what you do and who you do it for. And that is not wrong. It does have to be clear who you do and who you do it for, and if it's not clear yet, definitely, definitely start there. That is a big thing that you need to figure out, right? How to say that clearly.
But once you reach a level of maturity, you and all of your competitors are definitely doing that. Everybody is able to just say, I do this for this type of client. You should be at that point. And then, there's sort of no advice for what to do after that. And so everybody has these websites that are super boring and kind of basic, and they're not actually encapsulating the beautiful strategy that they're putting into their work with clients, because they're just like, I do this for this type of client.
So I kind of think that's a piece of messaging advice that you can ignore if you've mastered it, right? I'm not saying ignore it if you haven't mastered it, because clarity is important, for sure.
I guess another one would be, there's a massive focus on SEO as "I just need my site to rank," but if it's ranking and you're getting traffic to your website, but then nothing is happening with it, you're just wasting money and time and effort. So, I think first, get the foundation really good as a closer, and then you can focus on sending traffic to it. Maybe it's through organic SEO, maybe it's through ads, maybe it's through speaking and visibility, whatever it is, but your website should work for all forms of marketing. It should be your bottom of funnel closer, not just in the SEO bucket, and it's just relegated SEO, and you don't use it other than that.
And I'll say for consultants, SEO is really tricky, especially you might have some luck with your blog, but for your main pages, the competition is extremely fierce. Because you have these massive enterprise consulting firms that are just dominating the search results, so it's really tricky to break through that unless you have a very niche focus, and that niche focus is well-known enough that people are actually searching for it, so it's kind of this weird little sweet spot.
SEO Strategy Clarification
AJ: So SEO is really more to bring - SEO is more of a top of the funnel strategy? Would you say? To bring people that don't know you to the website?
Krista: So there's kind of two forms of SEO. There is foundational SEO, so let's say trying to rank your homepage or your services pages for search terms that people, when they're looking to hire somebody, are typing in, like "consulting firm for aquariums," or I don't know why that came into my brain, but for something like that, right? That person who is typing that, they are looking to hire. So, you would try to rank your main pages for that, and then you have your blog.
So, anyway, the main page's SEO would be kind of the bottom of funnel thing. Somebody who's in hiring mode, right? But then you have
