Jacki DeVries Full Interview Transcript
Episode 70 - Thriving Through Podcast
OPENING AND PATH TO SELF-EMPLOYMENT
AJ: Welcome to this episode of the Thriving Through podcast. Today, I'm delighted to have Jacki DeVries as my guest. Welcome, Jacki.
Jacki: Hello! I'm excited to be here!
AJ: Wonderful. Well, I always, as you know, since you've listened to the podcast, I always start out with one question that I ask everybody. What was your path to becoming a self-employed consultant?
Jacki: I've always wanted to own my own business. My father started his business in 2000, so I was 11, 15-ish, around that time frame. That's when I knew I wanted to own my own business.
The real reason I ended up starting my own business was because my old CEO, we went out for happy hour, and she said to me, when I really think about what fires you up in the morning, I think of SEO. So the name of my company is Fire Up SEO. She was a big encourager of mine, and so was my husband, so I had a great support team, and just where I am in my life right now, it just finally made sense.
AJ: And how long have you been self-employed?
Jacki: About a year and a half.
REALITY CHECK: EXPECTATIONS VS. REALITY AFTER 18 MONTHS
AJ: Is it meeting your expectations? Are you where you thought you would be after a year and a half?
Jacki: Transparently, no. And as I have to remind myself, first of all, I'm a perfectionist, so there's that, and I've been in sales for a very long time, so that performance mindset is something I really had to work on. It's very different selling somebody else's product than selling yourself.
And I've done, as we've discussed, a lot of trial and error in terms of different marketing tactics and sales tactics. So, I think I'll be where I want to be in a year from now, but right now, I'm happy I took the path that I did, because now I know what not to do.
But I am very excited about the future. I have some good things in line. I got a handful of clients, which is great. I don't want to scale too much too quick.
SELLING YOURSELF VS. SELLING PRODUCTS
AJ: Smart. So, a couple things in there. I love your attitude toward where you are. And I want to go back to you said you have a very long history in sales, but selling your services is different from selling someone else's services or products. Tell me a little bit more of what you've had to learn and pivot.
Jacki: Well, part of it is process. A lot of the other things that I've sold, there's been a process figured out beforehand, and this I'm kind of figuring out as I go. That's a big thing.
And number two, I think trying to determine what sets me apart, what makes me different. I tend to, because what I do is technical, and I'm really passionate about it, I sometimes go down a rabbit hole, right, where I should be asking more questions, and having them talk 60% of the time, or 80% of the time, versus me.
And that's something I've really worked on, that has... I actually have now a list of questions to ask during my discovery call, so it just took some time for me to really figure out what the best process was for me, and what actually resonated with people, or potential buyers.
DISCOVERY CALL FRAMEWORK
AJ: The discovery script is something that I teach in my program, because thinking through ahead of time the kinds of questions that we want to ask in that discovery call is really important. Because you want to lead the person you're selling to, to... that you want them to conclude that they want to hire you, rather than feeling like you've pressured them into it. So that's really smart that you're developing that script.
Jacki: Yeah. Well, I created an audit, a presentation audit, and so what I was doing was I was going through the presentation without actually stopping and asking questions. So, now it's a lot more organic and not as scripted, but I still have my, okay, here are my 10 questions, I'm probably not going to get to them all, but at least I have 10 to kind of navigate me, so that's helpful.
AJ: That's great. It's a good place to be.
BIGGEST CHALLENGES: NETWORKING AND TIME MANAGEMENT
AJ: Tell us a story or two about the biggest challenges you've faced in this past year and a half, building your practice, and how you overcame them.
Jacki: So, the biggest challenge I've had. I have been in inside sales my entire life. I've never done in-person networking. I've dialed for dollars. That was my life. So, this past year, I really stepped out of my comfort zone, and one of my business coaches really recommended me to go all in with the in-person networking.
So that was a big challenge for me, because I had no real history, or... I, again, coming from a very strategy, analytical background, I need a strategy, I need something in place to keep me in line.
And the second biggest challenge has been time management. So, I don't have an exact story for this, but I think there's a big difference between being busy and being productive. There are so many things as a business owner to keep yourself busy, but are they actually moving you towards your sales goal, your goal in general?
And, you know, I'd say that there were a fair amount of times when I didn't. Now I'm really good about blocking time on my calendar and really sticking to that. Because I can also start doing client work, right? Because I'm the salesperson, I'm the accounts payable, I do the work, I do everything. So now it's more so, okay, let's be productive, let's have these chunks of time blocked out, and that's really helped me a lot with getting more things done.
AJ: Wonderful. What's the biggest learning so far?
THE ENTREPRENEURIAL ROLLERCOASTER
Jacki: So one of the biggest learnings is that I need to remember that the entrepreneurial journey is a rollercoaster. Everyone has those ups and downs. Even the most successful entrepreneurs, they still have challenges, they still have moments of doubt. And I think remembering that has been really helpful.
Because there are days where I'm on top of the world, and there are days where I'm questioning everything. And I think having that perspective of, okay, this is normal, this is part of the process, has been really valuable for me.
And also just being patient with myself. I'm a very impatient person by nature, so reminding myself that building a business takes time, and that I need to give myself grace, has been a big learning.
PIVOTING AND LEARNING FROM MISTAKES
AJ: So you've been willing to experiment with different marketing approaches. Talk a little bit about what you've tried and what you've learned doesn't work for you.
Jacki: So I tried the in-person networking route, and while I've made some great connections and learned a lot, I've found that it hasn't been as profitable as I had hoped. It's been time-consuming, and the return on investment hasn't been what I expected.
I also tried focusing on small business owners, and while I love helping small businesses, I found that it wasn't as profitable as working with larger companies. Small businesses often have smaller budgets, and they're not always ready to invest in SEO at the level that I need to make it worth my time.
So those are two big learnings. And I'm okay with that because now I know what direction I want to go in. I know that I want to focus more on enterprise-level clients and build more scalable offerings.
BUILDING RECURRING REVENUE AND SCALING
AJ: So where do you see yourself going from here? What's the vision for the next year or two?
Jacki: So I'm really focused on building recurring revenue. I want to create more scalable offerings, things that don't require me to trade time for money in the same way. I'm looking at building online courses, maybe group coaching, things where I can leverage my expertise without having to be in every single client meeting.
I also want to focus on larger clients, companies that have marketing departments where I can work at a more strategic level. I've found that working with enterprise clients is more profitable and more aligned with my skills and experience.
And I'm even exploring AI agents and automation, which I think will be a big part of my business within the next six months. I want to use technology to scale my impact without sacrificing quality.
The key thing is that I don't have to... people don't have to commit to... because a big thing that I have found is that with what I do, nobody, because one, it's saturated marketing companies, right? Nobody really wants to commit to a year, unless you're someone like Neil Patel, where you have all, you know, 10 years of history, and have built that trust.
So, that's where I see myself leaning more towards, is that online scalability piece. And then, you know, and obviously there's a strategy behind that, finding out what people want to know, need to know, and then how to do it. Who knows, maybe I'll learn how to implement AI agents. That's something that's on my radar as well. Actually, probably something that I will be doing within the next 6 months, let's just be real.
But that's more so where I see myself going, just so I can then spend my time, my personal time, working with clients that on a very high level, strategic side of things.
FINDING YOUR IDEAL CLIENT MARKET
AJ: So it sounds like you're getting clearer on your ideal client.
Jacki: Yes, absolutely. My ideal market is really large companies who have a marketing department, and I kind of report up to a director, whereas what I have been focusing on this past year has been small business owners, which just hasn't... I just haven't found it to be very profitable, frankly.
AJ: Right. The growing pains of the first couple years.
Jacki: Yes, yes. Find your target market, number one.
AJ: Yes, yes. Absolutely.
RAPID-FIRE WRAP-UP
AJ: We're going into wrap-up, so I have a couple what I call a rapid-fire wrap-up closing questions. You've mentioned a couple, so this gives you a chance to re-mention them, or add two of them. The question is, what's one book, podcast, or resource that has been invaluable to your consulting practice?
Jacki: Well, let me just pull one up here. It's called the Entrepreneur Rollercoaster. So this one, for sure, I keep it near me. I have started reading the Four Agreements, which my girlfriend really highly recommends.
But I have just found Entrepreneur Rollercoaster to be so helpful, because there are so many ups and downs to being an entrepreneur, especially in the first couple years, that I often, weekly, will... and I have it on Audible, and I have, you know, the book. If I'm feeling discouraged, there's a certain part of it that I will read. That's helpful to me, because it kind of boosts me up, or just reminds me of, okay, this is a grind, pound the pavement, you gotta do it.
So that is one thing I have found that I'd say I have been... I continue to resort back to. I frankly should do more, but I should do more of everything, right? What do I do more of?
AJ: What is one piece of advice you wish someone had given you when you started consulting?
Jacki: Everyone has their opinions on what to do, the best way to do it. Stick to your gut, and there's a reason you started your own business. There's a reason you, you know, you believe in yourself. Don't let others try to navigate you, because ultimately, you'll end up where I am right now, where I thought I needed to scale online, but I wanted to try the in-person networking, and now I'm at the point where I'm... but it's a trial and error, it's a learning experience, now I know.
But just stick to your gut, and do what you think is best, because you are the business owner, and, you know, look at other people for advice. But literally everyone will give you a different path.
AJ: Yes, there is no shortage of advice on marketing and sales.
Jacki: Yes, 100%. And just know, pound the pavement. You're gonna have to do it, no matter if it's new business for what you're actually doing, or investors, you're always, as an entrepreneur, you're always going to have to be selling yourself, so just get used to that, because it's really what makes companies successful.
AJ: Good advice. Good advice. So, now I'm going to end with the most important question.
HOW TO CONNECT
AJ: How can listeners connect with you if they want to learn more about you and your work?
Jacki: So, I have my website, it's fireup-seo.com. That is the best way to take a look at my services, as well as contact me. The sales at fireup-seo.com also goes directly to me.
And please, LinkedIn me. I'm... again, I've been doing sales for 15 years now. I'm an entrepreneur. I'm always willing to help people in need, even if it is just strategizing about your website or ways to get yourself out there. I'm more than happy to speak to anybody, because I've been there. It's a struggle.
AJ: Well, wonderful, and with that, it's a wrap on today's episode of Thriving Through Podcast, and for all of you listeners and viewers out there, keep thriving through.
Jacki: Yes. Great advice.
