Shannon Smith Full Interview Transcript - Episode 85
Opening: Shannon's Mission and Background
AJ: Welcome to the Thriving Through podcast. Today, my guest is Shannon Smith. Shannon, welcome to the podcast.
Shannon: Thank you so much, AJ. I'm very happy to be here with you today.
AJ: Well, I'm delighted to have you. I'm excited to dive into your story, because you've got this fascinating combination of neuroscience and sales coaching for solopreneurs. So start by telling our listeners what's your company name, and how do you help people escape the corporate world but feel terrified of selling themselves, which is most of us as solopreneurs. So tell us more about that.
Shannon: Sure. Well, I've found that there are a ton of people out there who have a passion that is not necessarily tied to their corporate jobs. And just to be transparent, the market is really bad right now. People are laying off all the time. There's this return to the office mandate happening. So I can sense out there that people are feeling sort of anxious, maybe even desperate, to have some kind of stability on their own. And not only that, but tied to something they actually love doing and don't have to use the word bandwidth or synergy all the time.
So what I do is I help folks who have that passion, who want to help people in their own special way, I help them to be able to sell what they are offering the public. And many people just don't have a background in sales at all, and so it just feels completely foreign to them. They know what it feels like on the other end when they're getting pitch-slapped, or they're getting the DMs that are going right for the throat. So they don't want to do that, but they don't know how to navigate this system and potential clients without being pushy, without committing all of the faux pas that so many of us experience on LinkedIn. And so I find a way to guide them to where they are, to where they want to go, to where they can eventually quit corporate or continue on their side gig, whatever their preference is. But I make them comfy in sales so that they can help people in their own special way.
AJ: Wonderful. I can so relate to this. I needed you when I was a self-employed consultant before I became a coach for consultants. And I sucked at sales. And I thought I sucked at sales. And I did okay, because I did make a living, and I did stay in business for over 35 years. But I know that I did not make the kind of money that I deserved to be making. And even now, when I do a discovery call or a sales call with a potential client, I always use AI to critique how I did. And I did that yesterday, and I got a critique that said there were some really big opportunities where you could have probed deeper on this problem that you missed. And immediately this inner judge of mine spoke up and said, you still suck at sales. And that's even though I have been working really hard to overcome that belief, because that is an absolute limiting belief. And on the surface, I would have said, yeah, I've cleared it out. I don't suck at sales. I may not have mastered it, but I'm learning. And yet that little voice yesterday afternoon came in and said, you haven't gotten any better! So what you do is so, so important.
Shannon: Thank you.
The 2020 Breaking Point Story
AJ: So when we talked in the pre-interview, and I said that what I like to talk to my guests about is obstacles, lessons learned, mistakes, and you mentioned having files and files of mistakes from your journey. So I want to take us back to one particular time. Take us back to 2020. You said you were in a dark place. What was the moment when you realized traditional sales approaches weren't working for the solopreneurs you wanted to help?
Shannon: Well, it sort of evolved a little bit differently, AJ. I'll just kind of give you the high-level version, if that's okay with you.
AJ: Yes, absolutely.
Shannon: So I started in sales back before I even started college. I was knocking on doors, I was selling gym memberships, that kind of hard kind of sales. It's always really been in my DNA. I went to school, to college. I even wrote my thesis on what makes an effective salesperson, because I was always super fascinated with what makes people tick, what makes people buy, what makes people not buy. And so I was already going down that journey. If you fast-forward a little bit more, I got more into organizational behavior, how you create broad-sweeping change across organizations.
From there, that's kind of when in 2020 that little pandemic thingy happened. And I was running my own firm with really big clients, and I had just bought this old boat, a 1950 Sainer Wooden. So if any boat experts out there know, a 1950 wooden boat is probably bad news bears, and it was. But we were going to fix it up. The guy who I was with, my partner, was going to be doing that, but he was stuck in a different state. So here I was on this boat. I was anxious. The systems were breaking all the time. The power was going off. Trying to run my firm, also trying not to die from COVID, with all this news happening all the time. And so yeah, I went down to a really, really dark place where I was drinking too much. I wasn't sleeping. I had too much anxiety. I was just ruminating constantly, constantly, constantly.
Discovering Neuroscience and Transformation
Shannon: And I ran across a book called The Brain That Changes Itself by Norman Doidge. And that kicked off a year of deep research into peer-reviewed scientific journal articles in the space of neuroscience. And what I found, because I immediately found, oh, I can do this, I can do that, I can do this other thing. So let's apply it to me and see what kind of results I can get. I saw very quick results. My sleep returned. I wasn't nearly as anxious. I was able to cope with everything that was going on.
From there, I put about 30 people through a pilot. They also saw significant changes, from 90% reduction in anxiety was reported, procrastination, drinking less, all of the things that I was struggling with. But a lot of overlap as well. So what happened was, for me, I've always been in sales, and what I saw was, oh my gosh, this overlaps so incredibly well with sales. Being able to get your brain into the space where it can actually take in information, where it can actually reframe what you're experiencing as not a threat, where it can understand the context of what's going on. So I took all of that and converted that into what I'm doing now.
AJ: So give me an example of what you mean by reframing. What does that actually look like in a sales situation?
Shannon: Sure. So reframing is when you shift what you're experiencing from one context and you put it into a different context. I'll give a really common example. A lot of times people go into, let's say a discovery call, and they think, oh my gosh, this is me trying to sell to them. That feels really icky. That feels really gross. That feels salesy, right? So that's the frame that they're going in with. And when you reframe it as, look, I am a guide. I am a support person. I am someone who is helping this person make really important decisions. I'm not shoving anything down their throat. This is them making decisions. Then all of a sudden, that little bit of switch—yes, it's semantics, yes, it's nuanced—but that reframe takes away the emotional attachment to what sales is that really bogs people down.
AJ: So it's a bit like the work that my mentor does with clients is she talks about how you, as the consultant, are not there to rescue the client. You are the guide. They are the hero. That's their journey. And we're not solving a problem for them. We're solving a problem with them.
Shannon: Yes. That's beautiful. I love that.
Why Traditional Sales Fails Solopreneurs
AJ: So in terms of why, why the traditional sales training doesn't work for solopreneurs. I mean, I went through a very well-known sales training that's been around since the seventies. I won't name names, but it is considered one of the gold standard sales training methods. And I absolutely hated it. I hated it. And I think part of it was it was so scripted. It was so manipulative. It was like, first you ask this question, then you ask this question. And if they say this, then you say this. And it felt so icky to me that it reinforced my belief that I suck at sales, which probably wasn't the intention, but that's what happened.
Shannon: Yeah, yeah. So I mean, there's a couple of things. Number one, what you're talking about is basically like, just this is how you do it. And so your brain is going to take in that information and it's going to try to pattern match. It's trying to understand what you're learning. And because your brain is so smart, it's going to see the holes in it, right? It's going to go, okay, well, that's great. But what if they say this? What if this happens? What if that happens? And what traditional sales does not do is account for the psychology of sales, account for the neuroscience of what's actually happening in both brains, yours and theirs, when you're trying to navigate these conversations.
And so what ends up happening is you're left trying to hold on to a script or trying to hold on to some methodology that doesn't really encapsulate the entirety of what you're doing. So your brain's getting really confused. It's like, okay, I don't know what to do with this. This doesn't make sense. And then when it doesn't work out, you're blaming yourself rather than blaming the process or the methodology that you're trying to use.
AJ: Yeah, that makes total sense. And I think the other thing is that traditional sales training, at least the one I went through, was very focused on overcoming objections. And it was like, here's the objection, here's how you overcome it. Here's the objection, here's how you overcome it. And it felt like combat rather than a conversation.
Shannon: Yes, exactly. And I don't love that word, overcome, because it sounds very combative. When you're trying to overcome something, it feels like you're fighting against something. And so what I teach people is instead of overcoming objections, understand them. Get curious about them. Because what an objection is, is information. It's telling you something about what's going on in their brain, what their concerns are, what their fears are, what their priorities are.
And so if you can reframe objections as valuable information that's going to help you guide them to the right decision, whether that's working with you or not working with you, then all of a sudden it doesn't feel like this big scary thing. It feels like, oh, this is actually really helpful. They're telling me exactly what I need to know to help them.
The Brain Science of Sales Anxiety
AJ: So let's talk about the brain science of why we get so anxious about sales. What's actually happening in our brains when we're about to do a discovery call and our stomach is in knots?
Shannon: Yeah. So what's happening is your amygdala, which is like the smoke alarm of your brain, it's detecting a threat. And it doesn't distinguish between a physical threat, like a bear is chasing me, and a psychological threat, like I'm about to get on a call and I might get rejected. To your amygdala, they're the same thing. They both activate your stress response system.
So when you're getting ready for that call, your amygdala is firing off, your cortisol levels are rising, your heart rate is increasing. Your body is literally preparing you to fight or flee. But you can't fight the person on the other end of the Zoom call, and you can't flee because you need the money. So you're stuck in this activated state where you're trying to have a coherent conversation, but your brain is screaming at you that you're in danger.
AJ: So how do we calm that down? How do we work with our brain instead of against it?
Shannon: So there's a few things. Number one is recognizing that that's what's happening. Just having that awareness of, oh, my amygdala is activated. This is a stress response. This is not actually dangerous. I'm not going to die from this phone call. That recognition alone starts to calm things down because you're activating your prefrontal cortex, which is the rational part of your brain. You're bringing that online to help regulate your amygdala.
The second thing is, you can do what I call a pattern interrupt. You can do something physically to disrupt that stress response. So before the call, you can do some deep breathing. You can do some physical movement. You can listen to music that makes you feel good. You can do whatever works for you to shift your nervous system from that activated state into a more calm, grounded state.
And then the third thing is, over time, the more you do these calls, the more your brain learns that this is not actually dangerous. This is just a conversation. And so your amygdala starts to calm down on its own because it's learned through experience that you survive these calls. They're not actually threatening.
AJ: I love that. I love the idea of the pattern interrupt. And I think that's something that I do intuitively, but I didn't have a name for it. I have a playlist on Spotify that is my pump-up playlist. And I will listen to that before I do a discovery call or before I do anything that I'm feeling nervous about. And it does change my state.
Shannon: Yes, exactly. And that's the thing. A lot of people are already doing these things intuitively, but when you understand the neuroscience behind why it works, then you can be more intentional about it. You can design your own pattern interrupts. You can figure out what works best for you. Because what works for me might not work for you, and vice versa. But the principle is the same. You're interrupting that stress response and shifting yourself into a different state.
Pattern Interrupts and Objection Handling
AJ: So let's talk about objections again, because I think that's where a lot of us get tripped up. Even if we go into the call feeling calm and confident, as soon as someone says, I need to think about it, or that's too expensive, or I need to talk to my partner, our brain goes into panic mode. So how do we use neuroscience to handle objections better?
Shannon: Yeah. So what's happening when you hear an objection is your brain is interpreting it as rejection. And rejection activates the same pain centers in your brain as physical pain. So when someone says, I need to think about it, your brain hears, you're not good enough. And that triggers that stress response again.
So the first thing is to reframe objections the way we talked about earlier. They're not rejection. They're information. They're actually a sign that the person is engaged. If they weren't interested at all, they wouldn't bother giving you an objection. They would just say, no, thank you, goodbye. The fact that they're giving you an objection means they're considering it. They're just working through their own brain's concerns.
The second thing is to use curiosity as your pattern interrupt. When you hear an objection, instead of going into defense mode or panic mode, get curious. Ask questions. Tell me more about that. What specifically do you need to think about? What would make this feel like the right investment for you? When you shift into curiosity, you activate a different part of your brain. You move out of that threat response and into problem-solving mode.
And the third thing is to practice. This is where a growth mindset comes in. Every objection you hear is data. It's helping you understand what concerns are coming up for your ideal clients. And the more you practice responding to objections with curiosity instead of panic, the more your brain learns that objections are not dangerous. They're just part of the conversation.
AJ: That's so helpful. And I think the curiosity piece is key because it shifts the dynamic from me trying to convince you, to us trying to figure out together if this is a good fit.
Shannon: Exactly. And that's the thing. When you're curious, you're genuinely trying to understand them, not manipulate them. And people can feel that difference. They can tell when you're genuinely interested in helping them versus when you're just trying to close the deal. And when they feel like you're genuinely interested in helping them, their guard comes down. They start to trust you more. And that's when real conversations happen.
Growth Mindset vs. Fixed Mindset
AJ: So you mentioned growth mindset. Let's talk about that because I think that's another place where a lot of consultants get stuck. They believe I'm just not good at sales. That's a fixed mindset, right?
Shannon: Yes, exactly. So a fixed mindset is when you believe that your abilities are set in stone. You either have it or you don't. And the problem with that belief is it keeps you stuck because if you believe you're not good at sales and that's just the way it is, then why would you try to get better? Why would you put in the effort? It feels pointless.
A growth mindset, on the other hand, is the belief that you can develop your abilities through effort and practice. And what's amazing is that neuroscience backs this up. Your brain is neuroplastic. It can change. It can form new neural pathways. It can learn new skills at any age. So when you adopt a growth mindset around sales, you're opening yourself up to the possibility that you can actually get good at this. Maybe you're not good at it right now, but you can learn.
And here's the thing. People with a growth mindset are more resilient. They bounce back from rejection faster. They see failures as learning opportunities instead of proof that they're not good enough. And over time, that resilience is what makes them successful. It's not that they're naturally gifted at sales. It's that they're willing to keep learning, keep practicing, keep improving.
AJ: So how do you shift from a fixed mindset to a growth mindset? Because I think intellectually, a lot of us understand that we can learn. But when you're in that moment of feeling like you're failing, it's hard to remember that.
Shannon: Yeah. So there's a few things. Number one is awareness. Just like we talked about with the amygdala, when you can catch yourself in that fixed mindset thinking, when you hear yourself saying, I'm just not good at this, you can challenge it. You can say, I'm not good at this yet. That one word, yet, completely changes the narrative. It opens up the possibility for growth.
The second thing is to focus on progress, not perfection. A lot of people with a fixed mindset are perfectionists. They think they need to be amazing at something right away, or it's not worth doing. But with a growth mindset, you celebrate small improvements. You acknowledge the progress you're making, even if you're not where you want to be yet.
And the third thing is to get curious about failure. Instead of seeing it as proof that you're not good enough, see it as data. What can I learn from this? What would I do differently next time? When you approach failure with curiosity instead of judgment, it becomes a lot less scary. And you become a lot more willing to take risks and try new things.
Dopamine, Wins, and Building Momentum
AJ: I love that. And I think that ties into something else you talked about, which is celebrating wins. Can you talk about the neuroscience behind why that's so important?
Shannon: Yes. So when you do something that your brain perceives as good, as successful, you get a hit of dopamine. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter that's associated with pleasure and motivation. It's your brain's way of saying, yes, do more of that. And so when you celebrate a win, even a tiny win, you're reinforcing that neural pathway. You're telling your brain, this is the behavior I want more of.
The problem is, a lot of people, especially solopreneurs, don't celebrate their wins. They're always focused on what's next, what's not done, what's not working. And so their brain doesn't get that dopamine hit. And without that dopamine hit, you don't get the motivation to keep going. You get stuck in a cycle of feeling like you're never doing enough, never achieving enough.
So celebrating wins, even small ones, is crucial. It's not just about feeling good. It's about literally rewiring your brain to want to do more of the behaviors that grow your business. And the more you do this, the more momentum you build. You get into what I call a positive upward spiral. You do something good, you feel good. Then you do something good again. Then you feel good again. Upward you go. And that momentum carries you through the hard times.
AJ: I love that. And I actually do this with my students. I start every session with wins. And people feel really stupid doing it at first. But then they start to see the impact. They start to see how acknowledging those wins, even the tiny ones, shifts their energy and their motivation.
Shannon: Yes, exactly. And it's not just about the individual win. It's about the habit of looking for wins. When you train your brain to look for wins, you start to see them everywhere. You start to notice the progress you're making, the positive feedback you're getting, the things that are working. And that completely changes your experience of running your business. Instead of feeling like you're constantly struggling, you feel like you're making progress. And that makes all the difference.
Shannon's Advice: Have More Fun
AJ: So we're getting close to wrapping up, and I always ask my guests, if you could go back and give yourself one piece of advice from when you started, what would it be?
Shannon: I would say to have more fun with it. I know this probably sounds a little cliche, but being your own boss is really hard. It involves a lot of hours, patience, tenacity. And so if you can find a way to have fun with it, you are likely to be able to sustain longer.
And one of the number one characteristics that makes a successful founder from those who aren't is having that beefy mid-interior cingulate cortex, which is tenacity. So if something's not really working, let's pivot. I want something to work better, let's pivot again. Like the Friends episode with the couch. I would say find a way to weave some fun into it, because otherwise you're going to drive yourself crazy. So that is the advice I would take, is to be more lighthearted and fun with it from the beginning. Because in the beginning, I was still efforting and banging my head against the wall, and I was not having a lot of fun.
AJ: I will say, you're speaking to me. Lighten up and make it fun rather than being so darn serious.
Resources and Book Recommendation
AJ: So I have two wrap-up questions. What book, podcast, or other resource has been most valuable to you in your coaching practice?
Shannon: If I have to pick one, I would go back to Norman Doidge, The Brain That Changes Itself. It's not directly applicable to the tactics that we're talking about today, but maybe it would give an idea of just how powerful our brains really are.
AJ: I'm going to for sure get that book. The Brain That Changes Itself.
Shannon: Yeah. It's about a whole bunch of really cool studies, and just, anything's possible.
AJ: It's not just positive psychology or positivity to say anything is possible, because our brains are this incredible neuroplastic thing.
Shannon: Yeah. And actually, on that note, super fun study I can send you. I know we're trying to wrap up. There is at least one, probably multiple by now, that shows you can get stuck in a positive upward spiral. Because basically, you do something good, you feel good. Then you do something good again. Then you feel good again. Upward you go. And so that has been proven by science.
AJ: I love that. Yes, that reminds me, I'm a big fan of Positive Intelligence, and they talk about how you have to have three positive thoughts for every negative thought. So 75% of your thoughts have to be positive, or coming from your sage brain, your positive brain, to counteract every one negative thought. Because as I think Dr. Rick Hansen said, negative thoughts are like Velcro, and positive thoughts are like Teflon. And Positive Intelligence talks about at the 75% level is when the vortex direction changes. Below 75, the vortex is pulling you back into negativity. And above 75%, it's pulling you up.
Shannon: Nice. Love that. And it correlates with math, too, so can we get any better? I don't know.
Celebrating This Week's Win
AJ: Exactly. Well, and it's one thing, one of the things I do with my students is I start every session with some wins, and we celebrate the wins. And people feel really stupid doing it. I mean, throw your hands in the air and dance like you just don't care kind of celebrate. Because you talked about the dopamine hit when we do something, have a win, whether it's tiny or big, and we celebrate it, we get a dopamine hit. And then our brain says, oh, I want more of that. I'm going to do whatever activity triggered that dopamine hit, and we just keep getting more wins.
So on that note, I have one more question before I do my last question. What is one win, either personal or business, that you've had this week?
Shannon: This week, I would say I booked a speaking engagement I was really wanting. So yeah.
AJ: Yay! Yay! Yay! Yes, all right! High five and fist bump! Woohoo!
Where to Find Shannon
AJ: And the last and single most important question—if people want to find out more about you and what you do, where do they go?
Shannon: Yeah, normally I would say my website, but hopefully it'll be back up by March. So you can find me at BrainHacksByShannon.com. You can also find me on LinkedIn. It's the hot pink and yellow banner. Talk about neuro sales for now. We'll see how that goes. But yeah, feel free to reach out for help in sales, any other neuroscience way you want some help, or speaking engagements.
AJ: Wonderful. And we will put the link to your LinkedIn URL into the show notes, so it'll be easy for them to go there and find you. Well, Shannon, thank you. It has been delightful talking to you today. And for those of you listening or watching, keep thriving through.