BOB GREENE FULL INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ
DEFINING THRIVING AND CURRENT BUSINESS STATE
AJ: Welcome to this episode of the Thriving Through Podcast. Today, my guest is Bob Greene. Bob, I'm delighted to have you on the podcast.
Bob: Thank you for having me, AJ. I'm excited to be here.
AJ: I have a question about the title of the podcast. As you know, it's called Thriving Through. What does thriving mean to you, and is your consulting practice thriving?
Bob: Well, thriving for me means doing what I want, when I want, on my own terms. It's not necessarily monetarily driven. It's more about freedom of movement and only having to answer to myself. And is my practice thriving right now? The answer is no, but it's being positioned back to thriving. I got hit hard with the government shutdown, and I'm implementing some strategies to build back up.
AJ: Wonderful, and we'll talk more about that because I'm eager to know what you're doing to build back up. And we may have a surprise visit from Leo the Cat in this interview, so those of you watching should keep an eye out.
Bob: Leo is sitting on my lap quietly right now, but he might look around in a few minutes.
AJ: Yes, when he realizes that he's missing out on the interview. If he doesn't show up, we won't be disappointed.
βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ
THE PATH TO SALES TRAINING AND CONSULTING
AJ: So, Bob, what was your path to becoming a self-employed consultant?
Bob: My career started in sales, and then as I moved into sales management, I would hire sales trainers to come in and train my team. And I realized, even though the training was impactful in the moment, it didn't move the needle over time. Within 30 days, my team was back to doing their old bad habits. And I wasn't really able to manage any outcomes from the training because there was no real accountability baked into those trainings.
βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ
WHY TRADITIONAL TRAINING FAILS: THE NEUROSCIENCE PERSPECTIVE
Bob: So I started doing research, which I'm prone to do, and I started studying adult learning theory to see how people learn, and I started studying neuroscience to see how our brain adapts to new challenges. And what I realized is training doesn't work for three reasons.
One, it's not customized to the organization. The trainers who I hired would come in and they'd have their book, and they'd say, hey, follow my process. And it wasn't customized to our organization.
The second thing was it wasn't individualized to each learner, so the learners were being challenged with, hey, follow my process, but why is that important to them individually?
And then finally, there was no accountability to make sure that what was taught was implemented. So I started looking around at what I could do to overcome something called the Ebbinghaus Forgetting Curve, which stipulates within an hour of learning something, you forget 50%, within a day you forget 70%, within a week you forget 90%. And I'm sorry, if I'm paying for training, I don't want just a 10% return on my investment.
AJ: Absolutely.
Bob: So I started implementing some philosophies that aligned with my objectives, and they were becoming very effective for my team. And then I started testing them with other organizations who asked me, hey, can you help me out here? And I found that I was very good at the training I was doing. Here's Leo making his appearance.
I was very good at the training I was doing because it was outcome-based. There was a performance metric at the end, which gave you a way to quantify your ROI. And so I moved into the sales training space.
And what I realized is when I was being brought into an organization that required sales training, a lot of times that training expanded beyond just sales to organizational development, which I have a background in. And now I'm coaching CEOs, and I'm reorganizing management teams. And so I realized that one of the things that was a direct offshoot of the sales training was leadership development within an organization.
βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ
THREE BUCKETS OF EXPERTISE AND THE IMMERSIVE LEADERSHIP MODEL
Bob: And so I got additional credentials there. I took some certificate programs from MIT Sloan School and then Wharton from University of Pennsylvania to build my credentials in that space. And then in addition to that, I also do conflict resolution, because anytime you're implementing change as a change management consultantβI don't like to use the word change because it implies that what preceded it was wrong, and I want to keep those people allied to what I'm doing.
So I have three buckets of expertise now. I have anything in the sales enablement space, I do leadership development, and I do conflict resolution. And a lot of times that manifests itself as being an immersive leader with an organization rather than just doing training or outside consulting.
AJ: And what do you mean by immersive leader?
Bob: So I'll take on the role of, like, vice president or vice president of sales, and I'll go in and I'll run the team, I'll run the metrics, I'll hold people accountable, I'll hold myself accountable, and we'll do quantifiable and measurable results, improving sales processes, actually identifying if it's a sales process or if it's personality-driven.
A lot of times in organizations, it's a personality-driven process that is dependent on the leader, and if something happens to the leader, then everything else shuts down. And so I want to make sure it's a process that's sustainable outside of any direct individual contribution.
AJ: Got it. So does that mean you work with one client at a time?
Bob: I can manage up to five clients at a time. I have a team that I work with that supports me as needed. I bring in what I call my work group experts from my company, RCG Work Group. And these are people who have expertise that either complements mine or duplicates mine, depending on my bandwidth or the needs. I have people in financial services, in technology, in marketing, in strategic communication. And I'll bring them on a contract basis as needed to support a client. So I have enough bandwidth to manage five clients effectively at any one time.
AJ: And how many do you have right now?
Bob: Right now I have two, and I'm positioned to have three in the very near future. I have some that I'm working on. So I maintain a pipeline of about 10 projects at varying stages of development. Right now, two of them are signed contracts, and I have about three more in contract negotiation, and I have five that I'm working on that are in the pre-proposal discussion phase. So there's 10 in my pipeline.
βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ
THE IMPACT OF THE GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN
AJ: You mentioned that you had some setbacks. Talk to me about what happened with the government shutdown.
Bob: So about 30% of my portfolio was with a government subcontractor. And when the government shutdown happened, all that work stopped. And because of the nature of government contracting, even when the government reopens, there's a lag time before the contracts get reinstated and the work resumes. So that was a significant hit to my revenue stream.
What I learned from that experience is that I never want to be dependent on one client or one sector for more than 20% of my business. So now I'm very intentional about diversifying my client base across different industries and different sectors so that if one area gets hit, it doesn't devastate my entire practice.
AJ: So that's part of your rebuilding strategy?
Bob: Exactly. That's a big part of it. The other part is really focusing on that pipeline managementβmaking sure I always have those 10 projects at various stages. Because what happened when I lost that government work is I realized I had let my pipeline get thin. I was comfortable with the revenue coming in, and I wasn't as aggressive about developing new business. And when that revenue disappeared, I was scrambling. So now I'm very disciplined about maintaining that pipeline regardless of how busy I am with current client work.
βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ
THE 10-PROJECT PIPELINE STRATEGY
AJ: Tell me more about this 10-project pipeline strategy. How did you come up with that number?
Bob: It's really about probability and statistics. If I have 10 projects in various stages, statistically, I know that a certain percentage are going to convert. Not all of them will, but if I maintain that pipeline, I can predict with reasonable accuracy how many will convert to actual paying contracts.
So of those 10, maybe two are signed contracts, three are in negotiation, and five are in early discussion phases. As projects move through the pipeline and convert, or as some fall off, I'm constantly replenishing from the top. The key is never letting that pipeline get below 10, because when it does, you start feeling that feast-or-famine cycle that so many consultants struggle with.
AJ: And how do you keep track of all these projects?
Bob: I use a simple CRM system. Nothing fancy, but it allows me to track where each project is in the pipeline, what the next action item is, when I need to follow up. And I review it weekly to make sure nothing is falling through the cracks and to identify where I need to focus my business development efforts.
βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ
BUILDING AND MANAGING A WORKGROUP
AJ: You mentioned your workgroup. How did you build that network of experts?
Bob: It's been built over time through my career. Some of them are former colleagues, some are people I've worked with in other capacities, and some I've met through professional networks. The key is that I only work with people whose work I know and trust. I'm not going to bring someone onto a client project unless I'm confident they can deliver at the level I expect.
And I'm very transparent with clients about how this works. I let them know upfront that depending on their needs, I may bring in additional experts. And because these experts have specialized skills that complement what I do, clients actually see it as added value rather than me passing off work.
AJ: How do you structure those relationships with your workgroup members?
Bob: They're all independent contractors. When I bring them onto a project, we have a clear agreement about scope, deliverables, and compensation. I handle all the client management and coordination, so the client has one point of contactβme. But the workgroup member is responsible for their specific deliverables.
This model allows me to scale without having full-time employees. I don't have the overhead of permanent staff, but I have the capacity to take on larger or more complex projects when they come along.
βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ
REVENUE DIVERSIFICATION AND CLIENT MANAGEMENT
AJ: You mentioned not wanting to be dependent on one client for more than 20% of your revenue. How do you manage that?
Bob: It's something I'm very intentional about now after the government shutdown experience. When I'm looking at my client portfolio, I'm always evaluating the percentage of my total revenue that each client represents. If one client starts creeping above 20%, that's a red flag for me that I need to be developing more business.
It's tempting when you have a great client who keeps giving you more work to just focus on them. But that creates vulnerability. If something happensβthey change leadership, they have budget cuts, their industry faces disruptionβand they can't continue working with you, you don't want to be in a position where you've lost 50% or 60% of your revenue overnight.
So I'm always balancing client service with business development. Even when I'm busy with client work, I'm still having conversations, building relationships, and keeping that pipeline full.
βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ
PRICING STRATEGIES AND CONTRACT STRUCTURES
AJ: How do you structure your pricing and contracts?
Bob: It depends on the project and the client. For some clients, I do project-based pricing where we agree on a scope and a flat fee. For others, I do retainer arrangements where they pay me a monthly fee for ongoing support. And sometimes I do hourly or daily rates, particularly for shorter-term engagements.
The key is being flexible and understanding what works best for the client while ensuring the pricing reflects the value I'm delivering. I've learned over time not to undervalue my work. When I first started, I would sometimes price too low because I was afraid of losing the opportunity. But what I found is that when you price appropriately for the value you deliver, you attract better clients who appreciate that value.
AJ: How do you handle pricing conversations with potential clients?
Bob: I try to understand their budget and their expectations first. I'll ask questions about what success looks like for them, what their timeline is, what constraints they're working within. And then I'll propose a solution that fits within their parameters while being fair to me.
I've also learned from Chris Voss's book "Never Split the Difference" to reframe negotiations. Instead of getting into a back-and-forth about price, I'll say something like, "How am I supposed to deliver the results you want at that price point?" It forces them to think about the value and often they'll either adjust their budget or we'll adjust the scope to something that works for both of us.
βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ
USING UPWORK TO BUILD CREDIBILITY AND TEST MARKET VALUE
AJ: You mentioned using Upwork. Tell me about that strategy.
Bob: So I started using Upwork when I was testing whether there was a market for my services. And what I realized is that on platforms like Upwork, the currency of the realm isn't necessarily how much money you makeβit's the five-star reviews.
So I started at $25 an hour, which is significantly below my normal rate. But I wanted to get those five-star reviews. People would hire me, they'd give me the five-star reviews, and then I'd double my rate. And I'd double my rate again. So now I have a perfect five-star rating across all my reviews on Upwork, and my rate is much higher.
What that did is it allowed me to build credibility and social proof. Now when potential clients look at my Upwork profile, they see not just someone who says they can deliver results, but someone who has consistently delivered results for other clients. And that's powerful in terms of building trust quickly.
AJ: So you were strategic about building up your reputation before raising your rates?
Bob: Exactly. I did smaller projects, $150 to $200 contracts, to get those reviews. But once I had built up that portfolio of five-star reviews, I could charge higher rates and attract more serious clients. The last few contracts I got through Upwork were $3,000 and $4,000 projects because I had established that credibility.
And the other benefit of Upwork is it lets you test your positioning and your pricing in the market. You can see what other consultants are charging, what clients are willing to pay, and how you compare. It's like market research that you're getting paid to do.
AJ: That's a really smart approach. For consultants who are just starting out or who are trying to rebuild, that could be a valuable strategy.
Bob: Absolutely. It gives you a way to build your portfolio and your reputation without having to rely solely on your existing network. And you can do it on the side while you're still employed, or you can do it as part of your business development strategy once you're already consulting.
βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ
EXIT STRATEGY AND BUSINESS SUCCESSION PLANNING
AJ: Have you thought about an exit strategy for your consulting business?
Bob: I have. I'm in my late 50s now, so I'm thinking about what the next chapter looks like. I have a daughter who's in organizational development, and there's a possibility she might be interested in taking over the business at some point. But I'm not putting all my eggs in that basket.
What I'm doing is building the business in a way that could be sold or transitioned. That means having systems, having a pipeline, having relationships that aren't solely dependent on me. The workgroup model helps with that because clients aren't just working with Bob Greeneβthey're working with RCG Workgroup, which is bigger than just me.
But I'm also realistic. I know where I want to go, but I don't quite know how I'm going to get there yet. It's like having a GPS that gives you 15 different routes to your destination. I have the destination in mind, but I'm flexible about the route I take to get there.
AJ: And then you start on one of the routes, and if you take a wrong turn, it reroutes.
Bob: Pretty much. And if you look back on your career, most people don't have a straight line anyway. It looks straight in retrospect, but while you're going, it's all over the place. But you realize there are certain anchor points within your career that you build from to the next level. When I look back at my career, where I started and where I am seems like a natural progression. It didn't feel like it at the time, but in retrospect, it definitely was.
βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ
RESOURCES AND FINAL ADVICE FOR CONSULTANTS
AJ: What's one book, podcast, or resource that's been invaluable to your consulting practice?
Bob: Lately, I read a book by Chris Voss called "Never Split the Difference." Chris Voss is an FBI negotiator, hostage negotiator, who has a different approach to negotiation. My whole career, I was trained to get people to say yes. He wants them to say no.
And he wants them to say no because he looks at it as a source of empowerment. So rather than say, "Would it be a good idea for us to move forward?" his approach is, "Would it be a terrible idea if we move this forward?" And when you ask, "Would it be a terrible idea?" and somebody says no, the act of saying no gives them a sense of empowerment. Even though they're agreeing with what you want them to do, now they feel like they're in control.
And the other thing I really liked about his approach is when you're confronted with somebody pushing back against what you want to do, like in a negotiation where there's a give and take, I love his response of, "How am I supposed to do that?" And by asking, "How am I supposed to do that?" it forces the other party to become part of the problem solution rather than just the problem.
They now have to invest in telling you how you can do that, and by investing in telling you how to do that, they are now becoming empathetic to your position and aligning with you, even though they don't realize it. So there's some brilliant stuff there. It's Chris Voss, "Never Split the Difference."
AJ: Wonderful. I will put it on my reading list. What's one piece of advice you wish someone had given you when you started consulting?
Bob: Have more in the bank. You need, if you're going to do thisβI don't want to discourage people from going out on their ownβbut if you don't have a safety buffer, it's going to be very stressful for you.
So make sure you're doing it with some funds in the bank, and make sure you're doing it because you're compelled to do it. I don't think anybody goes into consulting on their own or business on their own because they want to. I think there's some sort of an incident that occurs that forces their hand.
In my case, I got tired of overperforming my sales plans and having my commissions reduced because I was making too much money. So I said, you know what, I'm done with this. And I started picking up contracts on my own.
The other thing that I would recommend for people who are getting started is look at places like Upwork where you can do gig work to test before you actually make the commitment. You can see what your value is in the marketplace.
And I'll caution people who use Upwork: it's not about how much money you make, it's the five-star reviews. That's the currency of the realm. So if you go on my Upwork, I've made about $15,000 on Upwork without really trying. But what I did was I started off with consultancy at $25 an hour, which is significantly below my rate, but I wanted to get the five-star reviews.
So people would hire me, they'd give me the five-star reviews, and then I'd double my rate. And I'd double my rate. So now I think I reduced it because I wanted to get started again, but I was at a place on Upwork where I was not getting anybody reaching out to me unless it was very serious, because my hourly rate was so high. And then those contracts typically were $3,000 and $4,000 for Upwork work versus $150 to $200.
But I did the $150 to $200 work to get the five-star reviews, because I have a five-star review across all my reviews, so I have a perfect score. And that's impressive if you're going to use that medium. Understand the currency of the realm.
AJ: Makes sense.
βββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββββ
CONNECTING WITH BOB GREENE
AJ: And this final question is the most important question. How can listeners connect with you if they want to learn more about you and your work?
Bob: Probably the easiest way is through my LinkedIn profile. I don't know if you're going to post that, but it's RC Bob Greene, because Bob Greene is a pretty ubiquitous name, so I put RC, my initials, so it's Romeo Charlie, RC Bob Greene, G-R-E-E-N-E, on LinkedIn, and that's the easiest way to reach me.
AJ: And that link will be in the show notes for those of you who are listening. So, Bob, thank you for being my guest today. It was thought-provoking and illuminating. Oh, and there, Leo makes the last appearance as we say goodbye. So thank you so much for being my guest, and for those of you listening, until next time, keep thriving through.
Bob: Thank you.