ο»ΏLauren Leonardis β Full Interview Transcript
Thriving Through Podcast | Episode 104 | Air Date: May 7, 2025
What Thriving Means
AJ: Lauren Leonardis, welcome to the Thriving Through podcast.
Lauren: Thanks so much, I'm glad to be here.
AJ: The title of this podcast is Thriving Through. So what does thriving mean to you?
Lauren: That's a great question. It makes me think of the Living Wage Calculator β I'm not sure if you've ever looked at it, but I sometimes refer my clients to it when they're trying to figure out how to pay young people they're working with. It breaks wages into tiers: poverty wage, living wage, and then there's a thriving wage. Because living just means you can meet your bare minimum needs. A thriving wage β or thriving through life β looks much more like meeting your own goals, growing, not just surviving but accelerating in some way.
AJ: I love it. Is it called the Living Wage Calculator?
Lauren: Yes. I believe it's by MIT. If you Google "living wage calculator" you should be able to find it easily.
AJ: Fascinating. We're only a couple of minutes in and I've already learned something new.
Lauren: You're welcome.
Lauren's Path to Self-Employment
AJ: Tell me β what was your path to becoming a self-employed consultant?
Lauren: My path is very different from most people who end up in this work. I started because I was homeless when I was a young adult. I've also always had a big mouth. So I went through these experiences β hitchhiking around the country, train hopping β and then when I had my first child, I lost my housing again and went through the family shelter system. I saw firsthand all the ways these systems work and don't work.
When I came back to Massachusetts, I was invited to start attending different community events through someone I had worked with at the time. I just started advocating. I showed up for free, over and over, until people finally agreed to start paying me.
At first I was extremely naive. I didn't realize that how they were paying me was exploitative. I was being paid anywhere from $15 to maybe $20 an hour under a 1099. Which is, looking back, absolutely absurd.
But as I grew and kept showing up, I realized: I'm doing consulting work. I eventually started taking on contracts outside of that first person I'd been working with. And the first time I got a contract from someone else, she looked at me and said, "What is your fully loaded rate?"
I said: my what? Nobody had ever asked me what my rate was β I had just been taking whatever was handed to me. She had to explain it to me: if you're doing consulting, you have to be able to cover all of your own expenses. Your healthcare, your taxes, all of it comes out of pocket. It blew my mind. And from then forward, I really grew into this space. That's been about ten years now. I have my own business β Rind and Reason β and I've been doing it ever since.
AJ: And when she asked you about your fully loaded rate, she also hired you?
Lauren: Yes, I was doing some contracting work with her firm as a subcontractor.
AJ: What was your fully loaded rate at that point?
Lauren: At that time it was around $75 to $100. It's gone up since then. I just didn't even know how to conceive of asking for more or understanding what I was worth.
AJ: What I find extraordinary about that story is the jump β from accepting $15 to $20 because that's what you were offered and you had no framework, to working with someone who essentially mentored you into pricing much closer to what your skillset called for.
Lauren: That first person outside of my original situation gave me so much more than just permission to name my own rate. I was doing national-level work, getting introduced to communities across the country. It really exploded my ability to practice consulting. I got out from under a situation that was honestly quite exploitative.
The sad part is that I did look up to that original person. I learned a great deal from her and still admire many things about her. But she was never willing to acknowledge or apologize for how she had treated me, and we're no longer on speaking terms. I'm thriving now, though β which is fitting, right? It was really because of all the people who pulled me up and brought me into these spaces.
One interesting thing about the youth homelessness space: there's a lot of emphasis on youth leadership and putting young people first. But in practice that can become somewhat toxic, because young people sometimes get placed into positions they're not yet equipped for, and no one wants to tell them that. At the same time, that's partly what launched my career β people saw lived experience and opened doors for me. Now I don't even need that framing. I get contracts because I'm good at what I do.
The DOGE Cuts: Losing Everything Overnight
AJ: Tell me about the biggest challenges you've faced building your practice, and how you overcame them.
Lauren: The biggest challenge has really been the past year or so. Without getting too political: last year I was one of the DOGE cuts. I lost almost all of my work at once. Most of my contracts at that time were federally funded under the Department of Housing and Urban Development. When the administration changed and the sweeping cuts came β first around anti-DEI policies, then bigger cuts beyond that β I got swept up very quickly. Large portions of my projects were put on hold or cut entirely.
It was extremely traumatic. And I was also in the final semester of finishing my bachelor's degree. I had to complete that last semester without any income. It was terrifying. But I also knew I wouldn't be able to keep going if I stopped to look for a job β I needed to finish those classes and graduate. Finishing that degree felt important for my career and for proving to myself and the world that I was capable.
People really came together for me during that time. There was a GoFundMe. People from across the country sent things to help me and my kids get through. I was able to graduate. And right around that time, I was asked to come back and re-contract on HUD work.
But things have been different since then. We're still navigating restrictions around language and what we're permitted to say. And many of my colleagues have left the field entirely β it was too difficult, too painful. They were, as human beings, under attack. Because this is the only space I knew them in, I may never really see them again. That's genuinely hard and sad.
During that period, I decided I needed to rebrand and expand my consulting business. I think we're still in the overcoming-it phase. I recently joined my local Chamber of Commerce and I'm trying to meet more local businesses and build a more diverse client base β because what I do can apply very broadly to many different types of organizations. The challenge right now is finding those leads when you don't yet know where to look.
Getting Visible Beyond Your Niche
AJ: Have you found it challenging for people outside the youth homelessness world to see your expertise?
Lauren: Yes and no. If someone actually sits down and has a real conversation with me, they see it β I do know what I'm talking about. But when I'm submitting applications or approaching work without that personal conversation, it gets harder. People ask for specific certificates, program management credentials, formal frameworks I haven't used. I've been a director of programs, I've built programs from scratch, I've fixed programs that were falling apart β but I've never gotten a formal certificate in those things. And until recently, I didn't even have a degree.
So there's a credentialing challenge. But once I'm in front of someone, that tends to dissolve pretty quickly. People usually see that I know what I'm talking about.
AJ: So the key is getting that in-depth conversation.
Lauren: Exactly. And honestly, I like to think I'm a pretty engaging person. I don't think I've encountered someone whose eyes glazed over yet. Once you say something like, "I help end youth homelessness across the country," people lean in. That kind of lead gets them listening.
I also started making stickers instead of business cards. My website is on the sticker, and people slap them on their water bottles and laptops. I went to a UMass Women Into Leadership alumni dinner recently, and one of the students said she had been staring at my sticker on her professor's laptop all semester. I happened to go to church with that professor, and by the time I went to tell her the story, the student had already told her! So no β I don't think people get very bored of me.
Rebranding: From Mother and Changemaker to Rind and Reason
AJ: You recently rebranded your business. What was the moment you realized the old name wasn't fitting anymore β and what does the new brand represent?
Lauren: Mother and Changemaker never quite sat right, honestly. But when I was first trying to come up with a name, I felt stuck. And I'm not sure I had yet found myself in the work in a deep enough way. That name was who I was at that stage β especially early in my career when I couldn't afford childcare and had to bring my kids everywhere. I'd show up to work events bouncing a baby on my hip while holding a microphone. So yes β I was a mother and a changemaker.
The DOGE cuts were what kicked me into gear. I realized I absolutely had to expand beyond that version of myself. Even the colors weren't really me β I had chosen purple because of my mother's and grandmother's favorite color and flower. It was everything that brought me to where I was, but not really who I am.
When I landed on Rind and Reason, it clicked fast and hard. Orange is my color β everything I own is orange, my nails right now are orange. I knew the brand had to involve orange somehow, but not in a way that sounded like some kind of toxic code name. "Rind" came from thinking about the structure of an orange: the rind is the framework that holds everything together. And "reason" is everything inside β the why, the purpose behind the work.
I had also read that people's brains tend to trust alliteration and rhyme β and "rind and reason" sounds like something you've heard before. It feels familiar and trustworthy. That felt like exactly the right combination.
I hired a fantastic designer β shout out to Paul Troya β who helped pull the logo, font, and colors together so it looked official and real, because it is official and real. The website is rindandreason.com. People love the stickers, they love the site, and it just feels like me. It's still new β since about the end of last year β but it feels right.
The Reality of Consulting Revenue
AJ: And are you making money?
Lauren: Consulting can be incredibly volatile. Contracts end without warning sometimes. I had a community I loved working with β we were making real progress β and out of nowhere they sent an email saying they were ready to end the engagement. No real explanation. I think it had to do with internal staff changes. They said they loved working with me and hoped to connect in the future, so I don't think it was personal. But that was ten to fifteen hours a month that just disappeared.
I still think about that one. When you get no explanation, you still wonder: Did I say something? I don't think I did. But you wonder.
At the same time, I recently launched a Youth Action Board Milestone Tool. I did a whole webinar about it, and from that I've had several people reach out. I offered everyone thirty minutes of my time after the webinar β a free one-on-one to make sure they could use the tool effectively β because I genuinely believe in making things as accessible as possible. I don't want communities that can't afford to work with me to be left without resources. But it's also generated real exposure. The communities that can afford consulting have reached out and said they're thinking about working with me.
In consulting, it's a lot of come-and-go. You get really invested in a community and the work, and then that engagement ends, and you do the same thing with the next one.
The YAB Milestone Tool as Lead Generator
AJ: Tell me more about the tool. Is it an assessment?
Lauren: You can find it on my website under the resources section. It's the YAB Milestone Guide and Marker β a guide that walks you through all the milestones it takes to develop a sustainable and effective Youth Action Board, which is one of the primary things I've done with communities for the past ten years. It's structured around three phases.
Phase 1 is about establishing structure and setting guardrails before you ever bring young people into the picture. A lot of communities skip this entirely. They need to assess their capacity, understand their budget, clarify the purpose, and essentially "set the container" before inviting young people to step into it. If you don't do this work first, you're setting young people up for disappointment.
Phase 2 is about creating identity and roots once young people are involved β developing a shared vision, mission, and values, and establishing what impact they want to have. Critically, this happens within the container you already built, so you're not telling young people "you can do anything" and then shutting them down on every idea.
Phase 3 is integration β where the Youth Action Board goes out into the broader community and participates in bigger-picture work, because they have the foundation and clarity to do so. I often tell people: if you skip the early phases, you're leaning the ladder against the wrong building. Every step you take just takes you further in the wrong direction.
The second tab is an actual tracking spreadsheet where communities can monitor their progress. And yes β I am fully aware that it's functioned as what you'd call a lead magnet, even if I didn't plan it that way at first. Communities that can't afford me can still use it well. And some communities that could afford me have reached out because they wanted help going through it together.
Pricing, Niche, and Building a More Resilient Practice
AJ: I want to ask about something that came up in our pre-interview. When someone asks you whether they should go into consulting, what do you tell them?
Lauren: My instinct is still: for the love of God, don't.
I was at that UMass Women Into Leadership event recently, and one student came up to me specifically to talk about consulting. And I told her honestly: I'm very successful at what I do, but it's because I have a genuinely unique point of entry. Unless you have expertise that is highly sought after β expertise that solves a specific problem, that people need to check a box with, that organizations are willing to pay premium for β you're just going to be another person putting in applications and not getting picked.
I didn't say that to be cruel. It's just true.
AJ: What you're saying resonates deeply with me. One of the things I speak about most is the importance of a very narrow niche β especially one rooted in lived experience. Your niche came directly from having lived through homelessness as a youth. Who better to work on initiatives serving that population than someone who's been there?
Lauren: Exactly. And now I don't even need that lived experience framing to get the work. I get it because I've done the work and have the track record. But that's what got me in the door in the first place.
AJ: What do you know now about the realities of consulting that you wish someone had told you before you started?
Lauren: I wish someone had stood up for me early on and said something when I was in that exploitative situation. A big part of what I do now is teach communities how to compensate young people appropriately so they don't end up in the same position I was in. I tell anyone who will listen: understand your fully loaded rate, understand taxes, understand what you can and can't write off. Baby me could have used that advice.
That said β I'm okay now. And maybe it was all meant to be, because that experience became the foundation of so much of the work I do today.
AJ: What are the biggest challenges you see in getting to the 3-to-5-year vision?
Lauren: Two things. First, the credentialing challenge β people in new spaces often want specific certifications and formal frameworks, and I've built my own systems over a decade of practice. I don't use a SWOT analysis; I have my own strategic planning process. That works brilliantly inside my established niche, but outside of it, breaking in will require some of that credibility-building to happen again.
Second β pricing. I've recently learned that my rate expectations for local business contracts need to be calibrated differently than for federal or large organizational contracts. I lost a recent local contract because a competing consultant came in lower. That's going to happen more as I enter new markets. I'm still figuring out how to navigate that.
AJ: I'd push back on adjusting your pricing. Find the clients who can afford you at your rate. The work is to identify which local businesses have the budget and the need β that's a better use of energy than lowering what you charge.
Lauren: That makes sense. And I do think there's a balance. In the short term, getting a few local clients at a somewhat lower rate isn't just about the money β it's about building social proof and word of mouth in a new space. It's almost like how product companies give away samples to get people talking. I need some of the local people to be like, "She's great, you should work with her" β before I can fully command my federal-contract rates in that world.
AJ: Exactly. And the more social proof you accumulate, the less anyone is going to ask you about certifications or what formal framework you use. They'll trust that your system works because they've seen it work.
Lauren: That's exactly what happened in the youth homelessness space. Ten years, no degree, no formal credentials β and I got contracts because people knew the communities I'd worked with and trusted the results. Stepping outside that bubble, it's like I have to rebuild some of that credibility. Not from scratch, but close.
Not Moving On β Braiding It Together
AJ: I want to ask a slightly challenging question. Given that you have this incredible reputation in youth homelessness β is there really no work in that sector that isn't dependent on volatile government funding?
Lauren: Genuinely, no. Even the contracts I have directly with communities are funded with federal money from HUD. The contracts themselves include language saying the work is contingent on continued HUD funding. It all flows downstream from there.
AJ: That makes total sense. I was asking because it seems like a shame to walk away from that body of work and expertise to essentially start over in a new niche.
Lauren: I don't want to walk away from it. What I want to do is braid these things together. I still love my communities. I've worked with some of them for years β we've become close, we've become friends. I want to see them thrive just as much as they want that for themselves. So I'm not stepping away from that work.
What I want is to layer in other work so that if there are big cuts again β if this entire half of my practice suddenly drops off β I'm not left with nothing. I have something else that I've been building. Because what happened before was sudden in a way that was genuinely traumatic: we got the notice at 3PM that we were done by midnight. I spent the last hour writing down everything I could for my communities before the clock ran out. And then we were done.
I never want to be in that position again with no fallback.
Where to Find Lauren
AJ: As we near the end of the podcast β how can listeners connect with you if they want to learn more?
Lauren: My website is the first stop: rindandreason.com. There's a contact button there, and you can find the YAB Milestone Tool under the resources section. You can also find me on LinkedIn by searching Lauren Leonardis.
AJ: And for everyone listening or watching β those links are in the show notes. Lauren, it has been an absolute delight talking with you today. Thank you so much.
Lauren: Thank you for having me.